Strange Bedfellows: AE911Truth, the Drone Industry, and Dwain Deets

by Scott Creighton

Who is Dwain Deets?  And why is one of the founders of the drone aircraft industry writing papers with Gregg Roberts of AE911Truth and working on their staff?

In State of Play an employee of a mercenary contracting firm (read as Blackwater) turns into a whistle-blower and gives the investigative reporter played by Russel Crowe an idea of what kind of stakes are involved… “You have no idea what you are dealing with. That contract of theirs is worth billions.  That’s Wrath of God money.”

1. “Wrath of God Money”, indeed…

The Drone aircraft industry has taken off (no pun intended) since 9/11.  Massive amounts of Pentagon cash has been injected into a relatively few select companies who are producing these weapons of mass destruction.

The White House’s defense-budget request for fiscal 2010 includes approximately $3.5 billion for unmanned aerial vehicles.

Companies such as General Atomics Aeronautical Systems Inc., the maker of Predator drones, hope to hold their edge over established, deep-pocketed contractors in what has become one of the military’s most critical technologies.

Lockheed Martin, the Pentagon’s biggest contractor by sales, recently tapped General Atomics to supply the defense giant with Reaper aircraft for a Navy contract. Northrop Grumman Corp. won the bidding, however.

Northrop is an exception among major defense contractors developing UAVs, with its Global Hawk, a high-altitude aircraft with a wingspan as wide as that of a jetlinerWSJ

General Atomics Predator B

General Atomics Predator B

As the civilian death tolls rise in Iraq, Afghanistan, and Pakistan from the cowardly use of drones like the one pictured, the production lines crank out more and more of them as a river of cash is poured into R&D programs all across the world.  Build a better monster and the Neoliberal American Empire Exceptionalists will beat down your door to get it.

The Air Force will train more pilots to fly unmanned aerial systems from ground operations centers this year than pilots to fly fighter or bomber aircraftCommon Dreams

The money being spent by the Pentagon on these WMDs is certainly intense, but it doesn’t really tell half of the story.  The Pentagon is just one client.  Unmanned aerial drones are finding their way into all kinds of applications in this country and others.  Our allies in the “Global War on Terror” are buying them up like hotcakes.  Homeland Security is using them to watch our border with Mexico.  Israel will be running buying them up to terrorize the starving Palestinians in Gaza, just like Mexico and Columbia will use them to carry out the ever expanding War on Drugs south of our border.

Fact is, even though the Pentagon’s three and a half billion dollar contract already qualifies as “Wrath of God money”, it only scratches the surface. It’s chump change when compared to the potential growth of the industry.

The “Global War on Terror” or as the Obama administration rebranded it, the “Overseas Contingency Operation”, has been very, very good to the drone business.  Very good indeed.

Global Hawk - wingspan as wide as a jetliner

Global Hawk - "wingspan as wide as a jetliner"

And if we know that the Global War on Terror (“The Long War”, the “Endless War”, the “100 Year War”, the “Ridiculous Scam Fighting Against an Invisible Enemy Represented by a Proven CIA (read as banker thugs) Asset bin Laden) started with 9/11, then it isn’t that far of a stretch to make the claim that…

9/11 was very,very good for the drone industry.  very Good

But where did the drone industry get it’s start?  Where did these remote controlled monsters in the sky come from?  Who created them? Who paid for their research and development?

2. The History of the Predator and one of it’s Proud Fathers, Dwain Deets

MQ-1 Predator

MQ-1 Predator

The Predator drone attack vehicle was not the first incarnation of this type of unmanned assault machine.  In fact, it is just one of the best known.  It is manufactured by a company called General Atomics in their Aeronautical Systems Inc. division.  But General Atomics is certainly not limited to just making cowardly bombing devices, they have their hands in many different pies.

Gulf Oil owned General Atomics for a while, then Chevron came around and bought it. But in 1986, the Blue Brothers bought G.A. for about $50 million dollars.

Lindon Blue and some guy

Lindon Blue and some guy

The Blue Brothers are an interesting family.  They both attended Yale I believe (Skull and Bones?) and they set up shop in Nicaragua where it appears they made bunches of money flying “bananas and chocolate” into the states (yeah, right).  But they became pretty well connected as the picture shows.

General Atomics was the single biggest corporate underwriter of Congressional trips between January 2000 and June 2005, according to a nine-month study of congressional travel disclosure forms. The company spent more than $660,000 on 86 trips taken by members of Congress, their aides and families. Most of that was spent on overseas travel related to the unmanned Predator spy plane made by General Atomics Aeronautical Systems.”  Wiki

They started pimping their drones in 2000?

But the drone projects didn’t start in 2ooo.  Let’s go back a little further.  Does this look familiar?

Pre-Predator Altus in 1998

Pre-Predator Altus in 1998

The Predator and the other variants of the drone vehicles came from this design created and tested Dryden Flight Research Center from about 1996 on.  There are some earlier versions of it.  Below is the Altus 1 from 1997…

Altus 1 1997

Altus 1 1997

The Altus programs being run at NASA’s Dryden Flight Research Center ended up becoming the Predator and Global Hawk unmanned vehicle bonanza for the Blue Brothers and a few others.  But even they weren’t the first incarnations of the unmanned flight programs.

From mid-1979 to January 1983, two remotely piloted, experimental Highly Maneuverable Aircraft Technology (HiMAT) vehicles were used at the NASA Dryden Flight Research Center at Edwards, Calif., to develop high-performance fighter technologies that would be applied to later aircraft. Each aircraft was approximately half the size of an F-16 and had nearly twice the fighter’s turning capability.  NASA

The HiMAT program was all about remote piloting of airplanes.  Not just fighters or drones, as it were, but all kinds of airplanes.  Do you all remember the images of the jumbo jet liner crash tests run by NASA?  They crashed a jumbo jet to see how the fuel additive would burn.  Well, they weren’t just testing jet fuel additives, they were actually testing the HiMAT flight control system as well.  They ran 60+ full flights with the remote piloting system pictured below with the other shots.

Remote Piloted HiMAT Jumbo Jet

Remote Piloted HiMAT Jumbo Jet

During the flights the aircraft made approximately 69 approaches, to about 150 feet above the prepared crash site, under remote control. These flights were used to introduce AMK one step at a time into some of the fuel tanks and engines while monitoring the performance of the engines. During those same flights, NASA Dryden also developed the remote piloting techniques necessary for the 720 to fly as a drone aircraft.

Remote Piloted HiMAT Jet Test Crash 1986

Remote Piloted HiMAT Jet Test Crash 1986

On the morning of December 1, 1984, a remotely controlled Boeing 720 transport took off from Edwards Air Force Base, California, made a left-hand departure and climbed to an altitude of 2300 feet. The aircraft was remotely flown by NASA research pilot Fitzhugh Fulton from the NASA Dryden Remotely Controlled Vehicle Facility.”  Wiki

Oddly, one name that keeps popping up in my NASA Dryden HiMAT Program research, is Dwain Deets.

In 1996 (same year as the start of the Altus project?) Dwain Deets was appointed Director, Aerospace Projects Office at the NASA Dryden Flight Research Center.  Deets had an extensive background with unmanned drone flight development dating back as far as 1974.  He was involved with the HiMAT project according to the NASA webpage.

Among the programs Deets has been associated with at Dryden during his NASA career are the F-8 Digital Fly-By-Wire aircraft, the X-29 Forward Swept Wing technology demonstrator aircraft, the F-16 Advanced Fighter Technology Integration (AFTI) aircraft and the Highly Maneuverable Aircraft Technology (HiMAT) aircraftNASA

In 1986, the same year the politically well connected Blue Brothers bought GA, Deets worked on a special assignment in Washington where he helped ferment a new direction for flight research at NASA.

In 1986 Deets completed a special assignment at NASA Headquarters, Washington, D.C., where he led an effort to define the needs for flight research and flight testing within NASA. He then headed development of a flight research strategy for what was then NASA’s Office of Aeronautics and Space Technology, now called the Office of Aeronautics. This effort led to a major increase in emphasis on flight research by NASA. NASA

In a paper written about the HiMAT program by Dwain Deets and another for NASA, we find this image on page 19…

Dwain Deets Remote Piloting Paper from 1985

Dwain Deets Remote Piloting Paper from 1985

What we see here is some of the earliest work on the remote piloting systems for airplanes.

Detailed as you can see, is a jumbo jet.

This image is found in a paper written by Dwain Deets in 1985, just prior to the Controlled Crash Test of the remote piloted jumbo jet at Dryden Research facility.

I think it would be fair to say that Dwain Deets is probably considered an expert on the remotely piloted flight control systems as well as a pioneer in the drone aircraft technology.  There are probably more connects that I just have not found… yet, but he has been intimately involved in the development of this technology since 1974.

So what is Dwain Deets doing these days?

Well, apparently he is working with Gregg Roberts at Architects and Engineers for 9/11 Truth. Of course, he doesn’t mention his extensive background in remote piloting of jumbo jets and the development of drones like the Predator and the Global Hawk on Dwain Deets’ AE911Truth bio page.

Retired Aerospace Research Engineer. While at NASA Dryden Flight Research Center, held positions of Chief, Research Engineering Division, Director for Aeronautical Projects, and Flight Research Program Manager.

Deets and Roberts recently wrote an article together critiquing the National Geographic hit piece.  The organization they both work with has shied away from both the remote piloting of planes on 9/11 theory as well as the investigation into the possibility that anything other than Flight 77 hit the Pentagon.

That’s not surprizing considering the fact that Gregg Roberts got his start in the 9/11 Truth movement working with Jim Hoffman.  Hoffman leads the efforts in the Truth movement to support the Official Conspiracy Theory version of the Flight 77 and the Pentagon narrative.  He and his followers are rabid when it comes to attacking anyone who dares discuss the possibility that something else hit that building.  Hoffman bases his entire argument on the FBI and prosecution “evidence” supplied during the trial of the “20th hijacker”.

It should be noted for complete transparency, the Gregg Roberts and I don’t really see eye-to-eye on the proper course for the current unofficial investigation into the events of 9/11.  I suggested to Gregg Roberts over a year ago that we should run tests on the Ground Zero dust they have in their possession for the trace residual elements of conventional high explosives commonly used in the demolition industry, and Roberts refused to do so, even though in the last paper written by Roberts, Jones, Harrit and others clearly stated that they thought SOMEONE should run the very same tests that Roberts had refuse to run 9 months before.

In fact, those tests could be run now. And no word still from Roberts on that.

Let’s recap…

Gregg Roberts (a guy who refused to test for trace residuals of high explosives) got his start with Jim Hoffman (a man who uses the Federal Government’s “evidence” to keep 9/11 Truth investigators from even considering the possibility that something OTHER than Flight 77 hit the Pentagon) and is working with and co-authoring papers with the man who helped create and ran remote piloted plane and drone aircraft research programs for NASA.

Does that about sum it up?

Not finished yet.

3. Global Hawks

The Predator isn’t the flagship of the drone industry. That title belongs to the Global Hawk.  With a wingspan as large as a jumbo jet, the Global Hawk was setting flight records in early 2001, winning Pentagon contracts in mid 2001, and ready for operation in late 2001.  Of course, one of the 5 supposedly ready for action in Afghanistan in Dec of 2001, was “unavailable”.

But did the Global Hawk have anything to do with NASA?  You betcha..

First flight of the Global Hawk was on 28 February 1998. Five prototypes were built, and put through a thorough flight test program. Beginning in the spring of 1999, the Global Hawk performed a series of operational evaluation flights, some of which were remarkable demonstrations of the aircraft’s capability.

The Global Hawk was scheduled to reach operational service in late 2001, and this timeframe coincided with the US intervention in Afghanistan. Four Global Hawks were available at the time, though only three were regarded as suitable for operations. These three UAVs were operated in the war, though specific details of their missions are unclear. One crashed on 30 December 2001 due to a malfunction.  Wiki

In the background you will see Dryden Flight Research center…

Early Global Hawk Tests at Dryden

Early Global Hawk Tests at Dryden

And later we see, in 2007, the Global Hawk actually being pulled out of the hanger at Dryden…

Global Hawk at Dryden 2007

Global Hawk at Dryden 2007

Eyewitness descriptions at the Pentagon attack on Sept 11th vary greatly.  Some reported seeing a jumbo jet, but many others also reported seeing a “small commuter jet” or even a small white “business class” jet hitting the Pentagon.

Small business class jet?

"Small business class jet?"

The discrepancies between the physical evidence and what one would expect from a 757 crash can be argued all day long.  But we do know this much; from the early photographs from the crime scene, we can’t make out what hit that building.  We can’t rely on the “evidence” supplied by the FBI and the Justice department in the “20th Hijacker” case either; those bastards lied about everything else, why should a faction of the Truth movement parade their “evidence” around as if it were immaculate?  Doesn’t make sense.

Were it not for this image, would Truth activists even consider the FBI’s evidence in this matter?  But ask yourself this; does the curvature of this piece look like it fits the massive body of a jumbo jet, or does it look more like one of these painted to resemble a passenger plane?

Think about a different paint job

Think about a different paint job

It’s hard to say.

But one thing I do know… it’s worth investigating with so much money on the line for the drone industry back in 2001.

But not for Jim Hoffman and his contingent.  They spend most of their time trying to convince 9/11 Truth advocates that the Bush Administration is telling us the absolute truth about what happened at the Pentagon.

Bush lied about everything else… lied about the War in Iraq… lied about what happened at the Trade Centers… but if you question the odd story of the Pentagon, you are what Hoffman calls a “disinfo agent”.

Hoffman himself has come under fire from several other Truth activists. Mainly because he used to work for a NGO,  MSRI,  that has ties to the NSAAnd some say he still works for them.

You won’t find any mention at all of MSRI on Hoffman’s several bios on his “Truth” websites.  He seems to like to keep that bit of his background on the downlow, so to speak.

Hoffman came under fire from me for his ridiculous theory about how the nanothermite could have been used to bring down the Twin Towers. 1.8 million ceiling tile bombs… and a lot of “illegal immigrants”… yeah…

And we have to add Gregg Roberts to that group as well, since Roberts himself works with Hoffman on his website.

  • Jim Hoffman, Webmaster and Senior Editor
  • Gregg Roberts, Associate Editor
  • Victoria Ashley, Research Consultant
  • Jan Hoyer, Outreach Coordinator

Odd isn’t it?  The awkward connections that seem to pop up in the inbred Truth community.

How much time and money do you think has been spend trying to steer the unofficial investigation of 9/11?  The world may never know.

But this much I do know;

1.  Jim Hoffman and his cronies work diligently to keep people from investigating the events at the Pentagon ESPECIALLY the idea that something other than a commercial jetliner hit the building.

2. Working right alongside Hoffman’s former assistant Gregg Roberts at AE911Truth, is one of the founders of the remote piloted flight program and the drone aircraft industry, Dwain Deets.

3. Since 9/11 the drone industry has skyrocketed making the Global Hawk and the Predator type aircraft the hottest defense contracting ticket there is.

strange bed fellows indeed.

4. The Human Costs

On Sept. 10th 2001, Donald Rumsfeld announced $2.3 trillion dollars was “missing” from the Pentagon budget.  On Sept. 11th 2001, the Pentagon suffered a direct hit… as it just so happened, that hit took place right in the offices of the accounting departments that were pouring through the records trying to find out where that money went.  This is the result.

Surgical Strike by "al Qaeda"? Really?

Surgical Strike by "al Qaeda"? Really?

What you see there are a series of numbers that represent victims of the attack on the Pentagon.  Below I have listed the names and occupations of some of them.

1. Carrie Blagburn, 48, Temple Hills, Maryland,  civilian budget analyst, U.S. Army.

2. Angelene C. Carter, 51, Forrestville, Maryland, accountant, U.S. Army.

3. Carolyn B. Halmon, 49, Washington, D.C., budget analyst, U.S. Army.

4. Jimmie Ira Holley, 54, Lanham, Maryland, accountant.

5. Peggie Hurt, 36, Crewe, Virginia, accountant, U.S. Army.

6. Brenda Kegler, 49, Washington, D.C., budget analyst, U.S. Army.

7. David W. Laychak, 40, Manassas, Virginia, civilian budget analyst, U.S. Army.

8. Samantha Lightbourn-Allen,  36, Hillside, Maryland, budget analyst, U.S. Army.

9. Shelley A. Marshall,  37, Marbury, Maryland, budget analyst, Defense Intelligence Agency.

10. Patricia E. (Patti) Mickley, 41, Springfield, Virginia, financial manager, Defense Department.

11. Odessa V. Morris, 54, Upper Marlboro, Maryland, budget analyst, U.S. Army.

12. Martha Reszke, 36, Stafford, Virginia, budget analyst, U.S. Army.

13. Cecelia E. Richard,  41, Fort Washington, Maryland, accounting technician, U.S. Army.

14. Robert E. Russell,  52, Oxon Hill, Maryland, civilian budgetary supervisor, U.S. Army.

15. Marjorie C. Salamone, 53, Springfield, Virginia, budget program analyst, U.S. Army.

16. Antoinette Sherman, 35, Forest Heights, Maryland, budget analyst, U.S. Army.

17. Edna L. Stephens, 53, Washington, D.C., budget analyst, U.S. Army.




“Civilian employee”

1. (Retired) Master Sgt. Max Beilke,  69, Laurel, Maryland,  civilian employee, U.S. Army.

2. *Sharon Carver, 38, Waldorf, Maryland, civilian employee, U.S. Army.

an accountant for the Army

3. John J. Chada, 55, Manassas, Virginia, civilian employee, U.S. Army.

administrative assistant for the Department of Defense Information Management Support Center

4. *Ada Davis, 57, Camp Springs, Maryland, civilian employee, U.S. Army.

an Army accountant

5. Amelia V. Fields, 36, Dumfries, Virginia, civilian employee, U.S. Army.

6. *Cortz Ghee, 54, Reisterstown, Maryland, civilian employee, U.S. Army.

a budget analyst for the Department of the Army

7. *Brenda C. Gibson, 59, Falls Church, Virginia, civilian employee, U.S. Army.

worked in budgeting and accounting for the Army

8. Ron Golinski, 60, Columbia, Maryland, civilian employee, U.S. Army.

Office of the Deputy Chief of Staff for Personnel

9. Diane M. Hale-McKinzy, 38, Alexandria, Virginia, civilian employee, U.S. Army.

10. Sheila Hein, 51, University Park, Maryland, civilian employee, U.S. Army.

11. *Angela Houtz, 27, La Plata, Maryland, civilian employee, U.S. Navy.

Senior Analyst at the Pentagon

12. Judith Jones, 53, Woodbridge, Virginia, civilian employee, U.S. Navy.

13. James Lynch, 55, Manassas, Virginia, civilian employee, U.S. Navy.

14. Teresa Martin, 45, Stafford, Virginia, civilian employee, U.S. Army.

15. *Ada L. Mason, 50, Springfield, Virginia, civilian employee, U.S. Army.

served as a budget analyst for the U.S. Army

16. *Robert J. Maxwell,  53, Manassas, Virginia, civilian employee, U.S. Army.

he served as a civilian budget analyst for the Army

17. *Molly McKenzie, 38, Dale City, Virginia, civilian employee, U.S. Army.

a civilian budget analyst for the Army

18. Ted Moy, 48, Silver Spring, Maryland, civilian employee, U.S. Army.

program manager in information management support for the Army

19. *Diana B. Padro, 55, Woodbridge, Virginia, civilian employee, U.S. Army.

a staff accountant for the Office of the Secretary of the Army

20. *(Retired) Capt. Jack Punches, 51, Clifton, Virginia, civilian employee, U.S. Navy.

Deputy Head, Navy Interagency Support Branch in the Pentagon.

21. Deborah Ramsaur, 45, Annandale, Virginia, civilian employee, U.S. Army.

Office of the secretary for the Army

22. *Rhonda Rasmussen, 44, Woodbridge, Virginia, civilian employee, U.S. Army.

a budget analyst,  Office of Budget Analysis

23. *Edward V. Rowenhorst, 32, Lake Ridge, Virginia, civilian employee, U.S. Army.

a civilian accountant for the Army.

24. Judy Rowlett, 44, Woodbridge, Virginia, civilian employee, U.S. Army.

25. **Charles E. Sabin,  54, Burke, Virginia, civilian employee, Defense Department.

…began his federal service career as an accountant with the Army Audit Agency

As a key DIA senior manager, his incisive analysis and outstanding leadership led DIA’s financial policy and accounting office through the major organizational and systemic changes of the 1980s and 1990s…

26. *Janice Scott, 46, Springfield, Virginia, civilian employee, U.S. Army.

46-year-old Army budget analyst

27. **Marian Serva, 47, Stafford, Virginia, civilian employee, U.S. Army.

Office of congressional affairs contact officer for the Army office moved to that side of the building 2 months prior to 911.

28. Don Simmons, 58, Dumfries, Virginia, civilian employee, U.S. Army.

29. (Retired) Lt. Col. Gary F. Smith, 55, Alexandria, Virginia, civilian employee, U.S. Army.

30. Patricia J. Statz,  41, Takoma Park, Maryland, civilian employee, U.S. Army.

31. Sandra Taylor, 50, Alexandria, Virginia, civilian employee, U.S. Army.

32. Meta Waller, 60, Alexandria, Virginia, civilian employee, U.S. Army.

special programs manager for the administrative assistant to the secretary of the Army

33. Willie Q. Troy,  51, Aberdeen Proving Ground, Maryland, civilian employee, U.S.    Army.

civilian program analyst in the office of the administrative assistant to the secretary   of the Army

34. *Sandra L. White, 44, Dumfries, Virginia, civilian employee, U.S. Army.

Sandra White, 44, was a civilian in the Army budget office, but her husband, a retired Army colonel, said she displayed the fortitude of a soldier.

35. Lisa Young, 36, Germantown, Maryland, civilian employee, U.S. Army.

93 Responses

  1. Yes indeed… strange bedfellows.

    And the mysterious plane that hit the pentagon made extremely tight turns…. and a very low intrance to the pentagon…. something maybe only a drone could do?

    As reported above…. the drone could turn twice as quick as a regular jet.

  2. It seems to me that pressure to release films of the
    Pentagon should continue ( however I doubt that the
    military would ever admitt guilt in this way . . . a whistle blower is needed within the military to get copies of the
    films out . . . and even then who do you trust to present them . . . they would have to be released on the internet
    first to make sure they got into the public awareness.)
    I think the 900 architects challenging the free-fall
    collapse of the 3 buildings . . . and the testing of the dust remaining . . . is the strongest way to proceed.
    The voices must be many . . . but the leaders must
    be credible or they’ll be dismissed for lack of credentials. The media should soon interview leaders
    of the 900 and growing architects. They deserve to
    be heard. Where are you Larry King ?? ( Not to mention hundreds of other media cowards ).
    Are they cowards or don’t they feel the need to cover this story ? It seems like they’re cowards.

    paul flaherty

  3. Thanks for this. You should try to primary source the Wiki citing to give those tidbits some heavier gravitas. But, damn, nice work. It is interesting how the AE website “seems” the most authorative, but now I must think further.

  4. Thanks Steve, that is a good idea.

    Unfortunately, I think what is happening, is that AE became a rally-point for us… Gage, I believe, is very credible, and his efforts to sway and collect other professionals was becoming a thorn in the side of the OCT PR machine. So I think it was for that reason they started to co-opt it.

  5. So many “loose changes” came together for me by reading this page.

    Gage connected to Hoffman connected to Deets Connected to Roberts.

    I viewed a 2 hour documentary on the construction of WTC 1 in 1990. “The Engineering and Construction of the Twin Towers”, (now disappeared). By 2002 I had remembered enough to know the towers were built to demo. The uniformity and containment seen and heard are only possible with perfectly placed high explosives. Something not possible under the occupied conditions of the building. Other substantial clues in the documentary provided details developed over some years and integrated into my demo site

    When the silverstein plans were leaked to S. Jones in 2007. I though it was earlier, but perhaps not.

  6. After examination of the plans I knew they were plans described in the beginning of the 1990 documentary as preliminary drawings made by Robertson to present the Tower concept to Minoru Yamaski. Yamasaki vetoed Roberts design because steel has too much flex in the proportions of the Twins.
    Closer examination found that the revision tables had been photoshopped into the scanned blueprints. Located in and sized to the cells of the revision table are anomalies. Not artifacts because they are sized and positioned.

    This is a screen shot from a .TIFF filed of the 104th floor core floor plan, the first torrent down load of the 600mb archived file I downloaded. Note the crisp resolution in the zoom.

    I used that info as part of an analysis of the plans in 2007 and made web pages with the results.

  7. Since that time I’ve posted that image on many forums in 9-11 activism. Not debate or discussion because 97% of the time I was opposing absolutely no substance, all ad hominum and, repetitive misinterpretation, evasion, cognitive distortions and nonsense. The same sheet also had what appeared to be an “01” in the date for the day of the month. Something not commonly done in 1967. The plans are analyzed here.

    I examined the files at in late 2007 and found the same high resolution .TIFFS that the download had.

    Just a few months ago I went back to the site and found that the original .TIFFS had been converted to .PNG’s with drastically reduced resolution. So much so that the original resolution I obtained from the screen shot was no longer possible.

    FEMA connected to NIST connected to Gage connected to Hoffman connected to Deets Connected to Roberts connected to Jones, connected to Silverstein all promote a description of a core structure that did not exist. My page about the tubular concrete core of the Twin Towers utilizing independently verified evidence.

    Good work. Lots of pieces of the puzzle fit better.

  8. BTW, paul flaherty, consider that since NIST attempted analysis with the wrong design and no plans that the “cause of death” on 3,000 death certificates is in error, Constitutional due process has not been provided. The OCT assumes it has been, but that cannot be right. See my page on Gage and how he has no accountability to the images from 9-11 that show only a concrete core.

    Christopher A. Brown

  9. I would like to see you support the claim with evidence that there was a concrete core in the twins. I worked for Emery Roth in 1971.

    Testimony from several people who worked there such as Rodriquez, Morelli or others who would have seen this ABOVE the basement level as this would not have been covered by finishes.

    Photos take showing formwork or finished pours.

    Details showing the rebar extending out the top of finished pours

    plans showing details – structural not architectural.

    These plans would not be from Emery Roth on his titleblock.

    At this point there is a lot of confusing information about the structure of the core and your articles contain what appear to be errors.

    • Saunders, it is not credible that you do not know Guiliani took the WTC plans from the NYC department of buildings civic room. The original NYCLU page was taken down but I’ve retained the contents. When you first becase aware of this at P4T, it was on the NYCLU site. Guiliani too 15,000 photos, videos, the plans can countless documents from the civic center room, WITH NO INVENTORY, the main objection in this letter to Bloomburg. So your asking for evidence of construction photos is taking advantage of what Guiliani did.

      You’ve also seen this image and many others showing the concrete core at P4T. This IS the core of WTC2, and there are no “core columns” protruding from the top of it as there would be if such steel core columns existed.

      This IS evidence fairly well proving the concrete tubular core. No one has ever shown images from GZ of the required diagonal bracing for a core of steel columns. There would be massive gusset plates connecting the steel columns to beams and diagonal. Some photos of that at GZ or diagonals during the take down will make your case, but there are no such photos.

  10. SanderO;

    I don’t believe the cores were concrete either. They do mention that they used a concrete wall board. Its harder than gypsom, but just used around the work areas in the core and around elevator shafts, but I am not sure about that.

    The core 47 steel columns ranging in size from larger at the bottom and smaller as it got taller. The steel actually ranged in composition as well, so did the steel of the outer columns.

    The framing of the core section was typical box consturction with tension and compression spanners and some areas used “I” beams for the floors.

    To my understanding, that is the construction method of the core columns of the Twin towers.

  11. Scott,

    Here are my comments, where I use DD for my name and comment in the third person:


    DD didn’t mention his extensive background in remote piloting of jumbo jets and the development of drones like the Predator and the Global Hawk on the AE911Truth bio page.

    Response: Guilty as charged. DD did not feel it pertinent to the investigation of the destruction of these high-rise buildings.


    The organization they (DD & GR) both work with (AE911Truth) has shied away from both the remote piloting of planes on 9/11 theory as well as the investigation into the possibility that anything other than Flight 77 hit the Pentagon.

    Response: The observation is correct. AE911Truth decided to focus on the destruction of the three WTC towers. This decision was made prior to DD joining them.


    NASA Dryden Flight Research Center, and Global Hawks have had a close relationship.

    Response: This observation is correct. However DD retired from NASA the last day of 1999. Most of the Global Hawk flight work at Dryden has been since that date.

    Additional comment:

    The endeavor to push remotely piloted aircraft, autonomous aircraft, or drones, whichever you wish to call them, was an uphill battle. It was against the social mainstream. Test pilots were at the top of the social hierarchy in the flight research / flight test business.

    Thus, when I became convinced all was not right with what the public had been told about 9/11, I found myself in familiar territory. Going against prevailing public opinion. It’s an uphill battle.


  12. Mr. Deets:

    I thank you for stopping by and filling in some blanks here for me. I do have a few questions if you don’t considering I never thought you would read this publication.

    1. You say that AE911Truth made the decision to shy away from remote piloting of planes and the investigation into what hit the Pentagon prior to your joining the organization in order to focus on the destruction of the SEVEN buildings of the WTC…

    though I don’t is completely accurate, as there are certainly archives at AE911Truth that date back to those early years which clearly include articles which cover these topics, I will admit that the engineering aspect of the collapses are certainly Mr. Gage’s focus and has been since his start in the movement.

    But he does that because it is what he knows. He brings his experience and his specific knowledge to the investigation of that one aspect of the unofficial investigation.

    However, what YOU know sir is not architecture and engineering of steel framed buildings.

    What YOU know Mr. Deets, is drone aircraft design and capabilities and specific information about companies which had at the time the capability to operate remote piloted aircraft… like 757s.

    This is your background and you sir are in a unique position in this unofficial investigation to shed a great deal of light on that subject.

    Now unless you think 19 angry Muslims flew planes into those buildings, or some “asset” decided to kill himself… that means that someone flew those planes, by REMOTE into those Towers.

    You think that MIGHT be something worth shedding some light on perhaps?

    2. How do you know Gregg Roberts? Had you ever met him before your association with AE911Truth?

    3. Since you retired from NASA, did you work for any defense contractors? Have you been appointed to any Board positions?

    4. Though I have the greatest respect for your intellect sir based on the level of achievment you attained during your career, I have to tell you I am quite curious about the following comment you made…

    “The endeavor to push remotely piloted aircraft, autonomous aircraft, or drones, whichever you wish to call them, was an uphill battle. It was against the social mainstream. Test pilots were at the top of the social hierarchy in the flight research / flight test business”

    First of all, though test pilots are certainly well respected, my guess is that people like Neal and Lindon Blue are probably at the “top of the social hierarchy” at least in the drone business.

    You do know them correct? They own General Atomics, maker of the drones..including the Predator, Predator B, Sky Warrior and Predator C.

    So though test pilots are certainly important, I really don’t see what point you are trying to make about them and investigating whether or not a drone was used to strike the Pentagon.

    Doesn’t seem to be much logic in that suggestion of yours.

    Aside from that, 2 more things are interesting here…

    One is that GA (Genreal Atomics) is also heavily into research into fission and fusion related technologies and that ties neatly into Steven Jones’ professional experience…

    “In 2007, General Atomics was developing a next generation nuclear power plant design, the Gas Turbine Modular Helium Reactor (GT-MHR).”

    and TWO… I noticed from your IP address that you are located just outside the city where General Atomics is based. Do you consult with them on their current drone projects?

    5. The destruction of the Towers was a process… do you understand? That means that someone set the charges and prepped the buildings, that’s all good and people are working to prove that beyond a reasonable doubt…

    “DD didn’t mention his extensive background in remote piloting of jumbo jets and the development of drones like the Predator and the Global Hawk on the AE911Truth bio page.

    Response: Guilty as charged. DD did not feel it pertinent to the investigation of the destruction of these high-rise buildings.”

    Ah, but you see, it is VERY pertinent to the investigation and I think you are certainly smart enough to know that, sir.

    I thank you for taking the time to answer some of the questions I had and I hope that I can impose on you to take the time to answer these.

    Scott Creighton

  13. […] Gregg Roberts seems to have brought in Dwain Deets, a man who was heavily involved in not only the development of the drone aircraft industry, but […]

  14. Scott,

    Your point 1.

    AE911Truth decided to focus on the THREE high-rise buildings at WTC (1,2, & 7), not on the SEVEN WTC buildings.

    True, I know aircraft technology (both on-board piloted and drones, as well as variations in between) far better than I know engineering of steel-framed buildings. I choose to focus on the buildings because the evidence is much more available.

    I have spoken out on one particular airplane issue, one in which the evidence is available and problematic. See:

    I try to stick to the evidence. Thus far, I haven’t seen direct evidence of remotely piloted aircraft or drones employed on 9/11/01. This is not to say there isn’t a lot of indirect evidence pointing to their use on that day. There is.

    Your point 2.

    I never met Gregg Roberts prior to AE911Truth.

    Your point 3.

    Since retirement from NASA, I have done a small amount of consultation work for a contractor in the flight test business. The work involved flight test in general, with the focus on on-board piloted aircraft. I have not served on any board positions in the aerospace field. I have served on boards, but in other areas of engagement.

    Your point 4.

    My comment,

    “The endeavor to push remotely piloted aircraft, autonomous aircraft, or drones, whichever you wish to call them, was an uphill battle. It was against the social mainstream. Test pilots were at the top of the social hierarchy in the flight research / flight test business,”

    was in the context of NASA Dryden Flight Research Center, a relatively small center. Both employees and most of management (the social mainstream) were much more desirous of flight projects such as SR-71, X-29, X-31, and the like. Remotely piloted aircraft and drones where much less enthusiastically embraced, although when they came to be “the only game in town,” they were finally accepted and supported.

    The “top of the social hierarchy” in the drone business had a relatively small overlap with the flight research “social hierarchy.”

    I did have dealings with General Atomics, as this article suggests:

    But, NASA purchased one or two air-vehicles, whereas, the DOD has purchased hundreds.

    I guess I share IP address with GA, but, no, I don’t consult for them.

    Your point 5.

    I agree. Pursuing the question of possible use of drones would be an important matter in a complete, new, and independent investigation.

    Dwain Deets

  15. Mr. Deets;

    Rallying the troops, are we?

    Don’t you think you should have been a little more honest with them?

    “An article was posted months ago suggesting I am withholding information of a drone operation at the WTC. I have ignored it until now.”

    Clearly, if you read the article, what I suggested you withheld was your EXTENSIVE BACKGROUND with romote piloted aircraft systems and drone UAV development… not “INFORMATION OF A DRONE OPERATION”

    at what point did I make that claim? Please point it out.

    What I highlighted was your connection to the company that makes the drones, worked with the Dreyden Flight Research Facility, and was owned by the Blue brothers since about 1987 who are close to the Bushes and even Yale Skull and Bones members (theoretically at least)

    But I don’t think I ever said that you were withholding information about a specific drone operation.

    Odd that you should make that claim elsewhere, isn’t it?

    Fact is Mr. Deets, you have extensive knowledge about remote piloting of aircraft.

    You know which companies had equipment at the time that was capable of such operations and you know exactly how they work.

    Now, unless you think we believe (or WILL believe) that 19 angry Muslims flew those planes into the Towers (lets leave the Pentagon out of this for a moment shall we?).. then you have to understand that they were flown BY REMOTE to those tragic destinations.

    THEREFORE the insight YOU can provide would be tremendously important to shed more light on that fact AND to convince other engineers in your position to come forward as well…

    THAT, Mr. Deets, is what I have said and STILL say you are withholding from the other members of this movement.

    So why would you go on another forum and make a statement like that?

  16. also Mr. Deets…

    I thought we were this discussion simply because you wanted to clarifiy some things with me. I didn’t know you were looking for an audience. I could pin this to the top of my webpage so that more of my readers could read along if you like. I am sure that there are a lot of people out there in this movement that would be very interested in joining in. Just let me know.

  17. I stay as close as I can to evidence available to the public. There isn’t very much when it comes to the airplanes. There is even less if the topic is the manner in which the airplanes were controlled.

    My expertise in drone operations and/or equipment is not particularly of value unless there was some evidence on which to build a case for drone operations. Certainly, as soon as I see anything along these lines, I will speak up and provide whatever background or insights I can.

    Lacking direct evidence of drone operations, one is left inferring they probably were involved. That comes from reasoning, from a number of standpoints, hijacker suicide pilots probably weren’t involved. Use of experienced pilots that are neither hijackers nor suicidal just doesn’t make sense. That leaves remotely piloted or autonomous drones as the most obvious alternative. Whether that was feasible or not depends a lot on what model airplanes were used, and what modifications to these airframes may have taken place. Without that information, any thoughts about drone equipment is pure speculation.

    Dwain Deets

  18. Mr. Deets;

    you say…

    “I stay as close as I can to evidence available to the public.” ”

    You see, that’s kinda what I am getting at Mr. Deets… I’m kinda hoping you can provide a little insight that is not yet readily available to the public, you know? “Gregg” Roberts once wrote an essay asking “where are the 911 whistle-blowers?”

    “There isn’t very much (available evidence) when it comes to the airplanes. There is even less if the topic is the manner in which the airplanes were controlled.”

    Now see, that is a very good point… there isn’t much evidence surrounding the planes themselves especially at the Pentagon.

    Of course we have videos of the planes hitting the Towers but only 6 still frames taken out of sequence, of what hit the Pentagon. All the rest of the videos were confiscated and never released (probably burned just like the “confession” videos of KSM)

    However we do have a GREAT DEAL of circumstancial evidence, don’t we?

    For instance:

    1. we know that whatever it was that hit the Pentagon, was flying low and nearly parralell to the ground in the last 100 yards or so prior to striking the wall.

    2. we know that there were no massive Rolls Royce titanium engines found where there should have been two of these 9+ ton engines found at the scene

    3. we know with the exception of a very few manageable by hand fragments, there was not the expected obvious debris field containing tail sections, wing sections, huge amounts of luggage, seats, ect.

    4. we know that at least one eye witness who walked through the damaged area prior to the collapse of the surrounding building, who stated that she didn’t see seats and luggage or even plane parts inside that office which should have been jam-packed full of all of that since Flight 77 was not outside on the lawn (as evidenced by multiple photos)

    5. we know that Pentagon officials and/or secret serive formed a line and picked up small fragments of whatever hit the Pentagon immediately afterward

    6. we know that they dumped 12″ of soil on the entire ground outside the area that was hit, effectively covering up (high explosive) residue and evidence AND we know they designed an built a monument to those who lost their lives which covers the ENTIRE LAWN outside of the section that was hit…

    7. we know that Dov Zacheim was a member of the “Vulcans” who helped plan Bush’s foreign policy prior to his taking office in 2001 AND Mr. Zacheim ALSO just happen to have been involved with a company that manufactured remote piloting systems for jumbo jets AND that he was put in charge of finding the missing 2.3 trillion dollars from the Pentagon budget AND it was his offices that were hit that day AND he didn’t happen to be in them at the time AND there was no alarm warning sounded as they watched something coming toward the Pentagon.

    Now, there are many other little bits of circumstancial evidence, Mr. Deets, but this is the real juicy stuff…

    for some reason, Donald Rumsfeld is said to have been unreachable during the 8:55-9:35 timeframe and that is why they say there was no order given to intercept these 4 “hijacked” flights..

    but the problem is, Mr. Rumsfeld is on the record as stating himself that he was in his office, alone, during that time (after his morning meeting)

    Why couldn’t the country contact the Sec. of Defense for 30+ minutes at a time of national emergency, when he was seated in his own office and there had not even been a strike at the Pentagon, at that time?

    Rumsfeld’s own assistant stated that right after something hit the Pentagon, Rumsfeld came right out of his office, headed right over to the scene (where he was photographed carrying a stretcher… very opportunistic of him, but one would think the Sec. of Defense MIGHT have had other things to worry about at that time.)

    but on the way to his photo op, Rumsfeld stooped down, picked up some small piece of debris, and held it up and said something like… “American Airlines. Hmm…” or some other obvious bullshit…

    Now, let’s consider that Donald Rumsfeld just might happen to be a coward along with a war criminal…

    Do you actually think that man sat there in his office WAITING for a 757 flying at 500 MPH to hit the Pentagon just HOPING that they pickes a wedge of the building that DIDN’T include his office?

    Do you actually think that Donald Rumsfeld and the rest of the people that planned this, JUST HAPPENED to have reinforced that ONE exterior wall section of the Pentagon and then JUST HAPPENED to have moved Dov Zacheim’s accounting team into it prior to 911?

    There are enough eyewitnesses who testified to seeing a “small business type plane” hit the side of the Pentagon

    There is more than enough circumstancial evidence that something other than Flight 77 hit the Pentagon on Sept. 11th 2001 and since the videos and the physical evidence has all been either confiscated, destroyed, or literally buried… it doesn’t look like we will EVER get the “direct evidence” you seem to be waiting for.

    and you are certainly smart enough to know that.

    I ask for testing of the Ground Zero dust for residues of high explosives, because we actually HAVE that evidence IN HAND and that kind of chemical evidence can go a long way to proving what many of us already know…

    but in the case of what hit the Pentagon and how the planes were flown into the Towers, we are NEVER going to find that “direct evidence” you speak of… so we have to move forward on the evidence we have and in so doing, we may actually find MORE evidence along the way.

    that is how an investigation works Mr. Deets.

    So no, this isn’t “pure speculation” Mr. Deets… though you may not want to admit it, there is good evidence that something OTHER than Flight 77 hit the Pentagon, no matter how many bits of “evidence” Mr. Hoffman and Mr. Roberts published from the Bush administration’s prosecution of the “20th Hijacker”

    scott creighton

  19. Mr Deets appears evasive in his answers. As if he were trying to “sleight of hand” us as we read along.

    Did he answer your issue of whether or not there were Muslims piloting airplanes? Does he believe there were? One may never know with such obfuscation in his answers.

    After reviewing his bio, it is apparent this man is not stupid. But he IS evasive. And, to me, that is suspicious behavior. Top that off with sharing at their site with misleading explanation furthers my suspicions.

    Scott, it is obvious that the importance of your points are pestering certain folks. I hope real TRUTH makes them squirm.

  20. Chem-trails have been distributed all over the planet for 2 decades, thousands upon thousand of hours have been flown; yet never has one single pilot- voluntarily or detected-ever admitted to flying chem-trail-planes. Now, what is the best way to NOT having pilots speak too much? No pilots, of course. Remote-control is known since the fifties; what you can do with a model-airplane , you can do to a big one. Cars also are being rigged for that, think of the best known; princess Dianas car .

  21. There is much to criticize in the 911 truth movement and there is much that is to be supported. The main thrust of the movement is to have a new complete impartial investigation which leaves no stone unturned and lets the chips fall where they may. The truth movement is full of speculation and theories about what happened and who was behind it.

    As a complex event the tendency is to attribute the execution of such a complex series of events to an organization(s) with enormous technical and financial resources and this leads to the speculation that it was a US or Israeli intel operation using military resources and technology… and certainly something which appears beyond the capability of even the most well financed AQ terrorists operation.

    The fact is we know very little about what happened that day and what we do know is from video, stills, witness reports, some materials and environmental testing and some “data” supplied by ATC and NORAD etc.

    Witness accounts are not especially reliable. We have been denied video of the boarding of the flights, the surveillance cameras around the pentagon and have a handful of video taken at ground zero, plus the stills released by various photographers during and after the collapse of the towers and the destruction of the pentagon.

    The official account left out so much and included so many coincidences and “contradictions” that it rings untrue.

    The twin towers collapsed once the tops of both towers became disassociated from the bottom which supported it. Unsupported both tops descended down. Weighing hundreds of thousands of tons the mass destroyed the floors structures below and they collapsed in an avalanche at about 80 mph. The actual speed is hard to determine as it was obscured by the debris cloud of the avalanche itself.

    The facades of both buildings peeled away as the floor mass plunged down. There is no evidence that the facades were exploded off the buildings. The cores faired better. The small floor areas in the cores were also victims of avalanche of debris, but the columns were left largely undamaged. There were no crushing overloads on them. The succumbed to their joint splices failing as the avalanches drove past them and if they survived that… and many did, standing up to 70 stories, they toppled because they were too tall and slender and their joints again could not take the stress.

    AE911Truth does not want to face the fact that these buildings collapsed. They need to focus on what caused the tops to disassociate from the bottom sections tilt and then descend turning their mass into unstoppable avalanches.

    The official story IS lacking as far as the initiation of collapse. How did the huge mass of the upper blocks of floors get moved off their columns? If sufficient number of columns on one side were to fail the top would tilt, perhaps causing the columns to move out of alignment and then descend and begin the crushing avalanche.

    The plane strikes did not destroy enough columns to accomplish this, so NIST tells us that fire weakened the steel. But their sagging trusses don’t ring true and don’t explain the tops moving off column.

    Explosives and intense heat might have accomplished the mis alignment, the tilting and the collapse initiation. Were these placed their in advance? Or were the delivered by the planes? If the planes were commercial flights it’s unlikely that they were packing the explosives and incendiaries to provide the additional energy needed to destroy sufficient columns to initiate collapse. Perhaps they were “drones” loaded with incendiaries. Or perhaps they were hijacked commercial flights which were then remote piloted and simply the “excuse”… we were attacked by AQ etc… even though the explosives/incendiaries were already placed in the towers at about the strike zones.

    There were reports of explosions low down before the plane strikes but none from up top. Whatever did the damage to the tops, took place after the planes hit. But this did not have to be a massive attack of every core column. The 23 in the center carried relatively little load compared to the 24 perimeter core columns. And of the 24 the four corner columns were the key load carriers. It’s not possible for the structure to not tilt, torque, twist and drop if perhaps 33% of the columns were rendered structurally incapable of carrying their load. This may be as few as 8 core columns! The floors spanned from core to facade and without support on either side the floors would collapse as well.

    The real investigation MUST focus on the sequence by which the tops “broke” free of their “moorings” and began to descend. Here is where the “truth lies”. AE911Truth is not pursuing this approach and tries to project that the towers were exploded in mid air by sequences of explosions top to bottom. And this is hardly supported by the visual evidence, even though it sounds convincing. They say it was meant to LOOK LIKE a collapse, but it was explosions.

    WTC7 is troubling, but even that seems to defy explanation. If there was free fall for 2.25 seconds and this means 100′ of the building became structurally “invisible” it had to turn to “dust”… and that includes the facade which is what we measure that rate of descent. Do we have any video of 100 feet of the facade “turning to dust” enabling the top to come down? Did the 100 feet down low implode in allowing the top to come down on top of it? Did anyone report seeing this? It may have happened, but all we see is the descending top. How do you get a part of a building to implode into itself? How do you create all that horizontal impulse directed to the center? Directed charges may do it.

    Clearly we were denied a good look at the evidence of all three collapses and of course the pentagon to put together what actually happened.

    If you then reject the official story and its key elements – hijacked planes… it doesn’t mean that there weren’t hijacked planes. it might mean that the hi jacking was both a distraction and the excuse the the GWOT which followed. That would be one political agenda… along with all the economical windfalls for the national security state…. and the energy sector.

    It’s unlikely that what happened was an AQ plan… even if AQ had dreamed to attack the WTC. Two plane strikes would not destroy 7 buildings. No way was that their plan…. because it could not happen. What happened was too complex for AQ and required technology and resources beyond their grasp. Pilots for 911T have demonstrated that it’s unlikely that those pilots flew those planes into those targets and the speeds and flight paths reported. Not gonna happen. Something else happened.

    We’re not an accountability society, unfortunately. So the longer the perps go around unidentified and free, the more likely it is that we will never get the truth. The event was so horrific that most people simply do not want to imagine “the good guys” doing this to us. The good guys being our “intel” services with the use of military technology and resources. That’s more frightening than Al Qaeda.

    The truth movement is fall of good and bad people. Some in it for fame, other for fortune, others because they don’t trust the government… and a few who simply find the official account does not make sense.

  22. Ive always suspected Dov Zakheim played a major role in 9/11. What are your thoughts Mr. Deets? And have you had any contact with SPC or any of the companies that acquired its technology?

  23. Yeah, I was hoping that Mr. Deets here could shed some light on when Zakheim’s company, SPC, developed their remote piloting system for jumbo jets. Since Deets probably played some kind of role in helping to develop that technology at NASA (which our tax money paid for) he would be in a perfect position to help flush out that part of the mystery of 911.

    But instead, he seems to want to talk about “nanothermite” while his friends at General Atomics make billions selling drones like hot-cakes for the Global War on Terror (Global Free Market Wars)

    But it doesn’t look like Mr. Deets wants to talk about anything right now.

    Pity, huh?

  24. Yeah, it really is. Evasion does not lead one to trust. Nice job though Scott, this is important work.

    Deets, tell your friends(Zakheim included?) that people are waking up. The 9/11 lie is unraveling. Considering your role in the drone industry your relative silence on this aspect of 9/11 strikes me as strange. And the whole-“wait for direct evidence….” line is a huge red flag for me. Kind of Chomksy-esque, and not in a good way.

  25. Does anyone who worked in the “drone” industry bear responsibility for 911? I am not a fan of the use of drones but they were developed by the military and pilotless remote control has existing for a long time without the intention to use these planes to attack our own people.

    Even if Dwain Deets led the development of this technology it does not mean he is guilty of anything other then competence in managing a program that has let to this reliable and accurate technology. Abuse of it is a whole other matter.

    I suspect that Deets would readily admit the non classified capabilities of drone technology and I suspect we all know that such technology would permit stand in modified commercial looking airliners to be remotely piloted into the towers or into and over the pentagon.

    We do know that the plane strikes did not knock the towers down. They may have delivered some nasty explosives of incendiaries which led to the collapse and assuring that they hit the target might better be left to hi tech as opposed to paid lackey terrorist “pilots”.

    But there is so much confusion about those two flights. Were they hi jacked? If not what planes were flown into the towers and what happened to the alleged flights and their passengers?

    If the planes actually had little to do with the collapses and only provided the “excuse” to go after Al Qaeda and divert attention away from the real perps all the data about speed and so forth is also distraction.

    In either case the planes HAD to hit the towers for the event to “make sense” and hitting the towers seemed rather difficult except at low speeds and this was not what was witnessed. So it looks like there was some sort of “remote” or auto piloted guidance at play. The planes still might have been “hi jacked” but even the hijackers were part of the plot they didn’t know the half of. The planes might have been tricked out and loaded with explosive cargo and still remotely piloted or flown as “drones”. it doesn’t really matter.

    The story is that 19 hijackers took the planes and flew them into the towers, the pentagon and crashed in PA and they were the enemy. To scare the pants off of America and to make a whole lot of people very rich – two wars were waged and lots of insurance claims settled, related to the losses, a the national security state took a huge leap forward. NONE OF THIS was decided with rational analysis of the threat or what actually happened on that day. 911 was a huge PR event – false flag and like so much of PR it is staged to look like something it isn’t. We are trained to accept TV and movies as real and we sit there believing our eyes and ears for those few hours we are taken for the ride in our seats. THAT is all how many people make money! We pay for this fiction, We believe it as fact.

    We were told recently that there are only 50 AQ in Afghanistan. Why do we have 100,000 troops fighting 50 guys on donkeys who live in caves? Is that a threat to us?

    Like so many of the “events” in our lives, 911 was presented to us to move the war agenda forward and to advance the interests of “international capital”. I seriously doubt that Dwain Deets is supporting that agenda. And I don’t think Chomsky is either.

    However, anyone who works with and supports the military needs to ask themselves what the real threats out there are today. We have become our worst enemy feeding on paranoia.

  26. SanderO:

    “Even if Dwain Deets led the development of this technology it does not mean he is guilty of anything other then competence in managing a program that has let to this reliable and accurate technology. Abuse of it is a whole other matter”

    I am saying Deets can provide us with insight into which companies had this technology at the time as well as specific information as to how it could have been used on Sept. 11th.

    I am not saying he is “guilty” of anything…. HOWEVER… it is my guess that someone created a scaled down version of Flight 77 painted and shaped to LOOK like Flight 77… and in THAT case, yes, Deets could very well know a LOT more than he is letting on.

  27. SanderO;

    “Like so many of the “events” in our lives, 911 was presented to us to move the war agenda forward and to advance the interests of “international capital”. I seriously doubt that Dwain Deets is supporting that agenda. And I don’t think Chomsky is either.”

    I agree about Chomsky… I think he is either just to dedicated to only talking about what he himself can “prove” or maybe he is scared of what will happen if he promotes the Truth about 911 (he would certainly be out of MIT that is for sure)

    But Deets is different. Deets is still involved financially with the contractors like General Atomics who have directly profited from the Global Free Market Wars. I give him much less leighway than someone like Chomsky. Though I am certainly disappointed in Chomsky’s take on all of this, I don’t think his position is about obfuscation like I think Deets clearly is.

  28. Oh if you could see my email correspondence with Chomsky over 9/11. You should try it yourself, it is very illuminating(and annoying) trying to get a straight answer from that man on that subject. I won’t accuse him of anything but cowardice and/or naivety, though I am open to the possibility there is something “more” there. I base that on many things including his previous deception on another big issue-the JFK hit. And he just doesn’t seem that naive to me.

    Deets could choose to come back and clear some things up, but as of now it appears he has no interest in doing that so speculation will continue. I am not accusing him of anything but the so called drone industry really isn’t all the big and it stands to reason that if you think remote flight was used on 9/11(I do) Deets could provide some valuable insight and may even know who abused this technology, if only tangentially.

    This is the 9/11 truth movement, it would make sense for the perps or those connected to try and place someone within an important organization like AE911Truth to poison it. It would be truly naive to think that they would NOT attempt that. Again-I am not accusing Deets of this but the less open he is the more likely people will continue to speculate.

  29. AE911 may be thought of as the gold standard by the general public because they appear to be representing now over 1200 architects and engineers, but a closer look by anyone at the organization will reveal that there are very few architects and engineers who work in the organization and the organization itself does not do any independent research, but refers to the research of others… who authorize AE to use it… such as Chandler.

    AE911T is not a true professional organization with high standards for membership. Even their 1200 architects and engineers is not limited to building professionals but includes a whole range of people with engineering degrees such as Deets who has little expertise in building structures. So AE911T is a bit of a front or an illusion.

    They are calling for a new investigation, but they do so by claiming there is an open and shut case for controlled demolition in all three towers. They refuse to look at the structural issues related to the pentagon which had some structural anomalies as well.

    AE911’s main claim about the twins is that they exploded from the top down in some sophisticated high tech type of sequence explosions which was to create the illusion of a top down collapse.

    However, there was a top down collapse and it was no illusion created by explosives or incendiaries. That is a reality that this group refuses to even consider. What they SHOULD be putting all their energy and professional expertise into is how and what cause the tops to tilt, twist, oscillate, and eventually drop with DID cause the bottom to collapse.

    AE911T, unfortunately is spewing scientific facts and principles which make it seem as if what we are seeing is not obeying the laws of physics … that is what they refer to as a natural collapse, and what we saw was an illusion – a controlled demolition from top to bottom… columns were cut all through the building, explosive squibs are evidence of this.

    They are wasting their credibility on CD arguments and avoiding the structural issues which are indeed very troubling. The tube and hull or tube in a tube design which was so highly touted at stronger and cheap to build and provided that great column free rentable floor space was what allowed them to collapse as they did. This means that the architects, engineers, PA and the NYC DOB share the responsibility of that collapse. They didn’t cause it, but the design allowed it to happen with actually little intervention.

    And there was intervention beyond commercial airline strikes and some office fires. That was not going to collapse the top section so that it could and would cause the floors below to collapse in an avalanche to the ground with only flimsy trusses designed to carry 48 thousand pounds each. But what happens when the weight of multiple floors – hundreds of thousands of pounds fall onto one of the floors and the trusses supporting it? It collapse damn quick and then the one below and so on. The floor system failed and they did so because almost all 110 of them were of the same structural design and the mechanical floors were only a few times stronger and once they let go their massive equipment only added to the mass of the avalanche.

    The failures accumulated over time. At first the reserve strength of the structure was able to handle the loads and then laterally transfer some of them, but soon the various elements were seeing their yield strength exceeded. When they failed the extra loads they were carrying now moved to other (adjacent members first) parts of the structure. At some point the critical mass was reached and the undamaged parts of the structure (columns) buckled. This caused the tops to drop, tilt, twist and their floors to break apart and drop onto the floors below and once enough of them had done this the floors they fell onto were overloaded and the avalanche began like a damn breaking. And once it got going it traveled at enormous speed down to the ground… and yes a sizable fraction of free fall. The puny bolts and beam seats were almost transparent to the hundreds of thousands of tons of mass they encountered. This is like a fist punch through a piece of newsprint. The failure is almost instantaneous. Does the paper slow your fist? Sure. And each floor offered a tiny bit of resistance, but that’s why it wasn’t AT free fall acceleration by perhaps 70% of it.

    Let’s be intellectually honest about what actually happened and architects and engineers should understand this basic stuff. What’s up with AE911T not examining the structural failure of the twin towers?

  30. What IS the essential truth that matters about 911?

    is it that it wasn’t AQ? Jeez … a fair portion of the public no longer buys that hooey.

    Chomsky, Prof Blum and others are of the blow back mind set. America has gone around doing evil and it is now paying the price for it… sort of what goes around comes around.

    But the blowback is surely happening at the local level around the world. There is hardly a global blowback response beyond the few states which stick it to the US like Venezula and their bite is hardly more than a mild humiliation to capital. None of these official leftest would think of an aggression against the USA… even the nut Kim ll Jong. They all know how easily a US military response is to provoke and all they do is bluster with language. But Saddam learned you can say anything you want and if the US is out to get you they will…. manufacturer the pretense and send some shock and awe. Next up Iran.

    The AQ card was good the getting us into South Asia, and getting the flags out, identifying the new “niggers” of the world – something we all can hate… but that card’s been played and the people ain’t falling for it any more.

    Time for a strike against one of our military installations in the Gulf region to we can shock and awe Tehran.

    How do you know what Deets’ financial ties to the defense industry are?

  31. SanderO;

    I did not say I knew his ties… I said he still had ties… and I said that because he just admitted as much.

    “Since retirement from NASA, I have done a small amount of consultation work for a contractor in the flight test business. The work involved flight test in general, with the focus on on-board piloted aircraft. I have not served on any board positions in the aerospace field. I have served on boards, but in other areas of engagement.” Dwain Deets

    of course, Mr. Deets didn’t specify WHICh companies he is talking about, but I have to venture a guess that he wasn’t “consulting” in the test flight department of Burger King…

    and of course I never asked him if he held stock options for any of the companies like General Atomics or other defense contractors who are profiting from his research at the Dryden Flight Research Center that we paid for.

  32. “How do you know what Deets’ financial ties to the defense industry are?”

    I think thats kind of the point-we don’t. Why so quick to speak on behalf of him? And can I ask who YOU think was behind 9/11? You actually think the towers came down due to “structural failure” and the plane strikes alone? Am I reading this right?

    Regardless of what one thinks of AE911truth at the moment, the fact is it would be a highly desirable group to infiltrate and destroy based on its potential alone.

  33. So what? He is consulting in an industry where he has expertise. What does that have to do with some nasties who may have used technology Deets may have been involved in the development of for other purposes than flying planes in to office towers.

    We know the technology exists to do this. The questions to ask is how did this get used for 911… it it did. Whose planes and who piloted them and who directed this all.

    How about this… is it possible to use a flight simulator and actually be flying a real flight (remote) without knowing it?

  34. Chris, to answer some of your questions briefly.

    I suspect:

    The plane strikes were one of two things:

    Diversions from the actual mechanism of destruction and an excuse to blame it on AQ


    a mechanism for delivery of some high tech incendiaries which would melt steel, causing the tops to topple and crash through the bottoms and an excuse to blame it on AQ.

    I do not believe commercial flights striking the twins and the fires which ensued could weaken enough of the columns to allow the tops to drop on to and then through to the ground.

    I have worked closely with AE911T in the past (no longer do for multiple reasons) and had dealing with DD and found him to be be one of the few in the group’s leaders of which I had no problem with. I think they are well intentioned, somewhat misguided and definitely not going to change what they say regardless of the facts. They’re on a mission to get an investigation and they believe their tack is going to get it. I’m not so sure.

    AE911T does seem to have an aura of respectability and credibility and that would be a threat even if their message was flawed in some aspects to the perps. I don’t know that the threat is significant enough to actually infiltrate and destroy them, though I am sure that this is a thought that is ever present in Gage’s mind. So they seem to have a with us or against us litmus test. If you don’t support their whole presentation, you are considered tainted goods and pushed aside.

  35. Yes Sander, and he is now a member of a 9/11 truth group and a pretty crucial one,like it or not. That does not automatically mean he is “suspect” or that he had anything to do with planes flying into office buildings, but it should make ones antenna go up considering the looooooong history of the infiltration of what are deemed “dangerous” political movements, such as the 9/11 movement. Do you know Mr. Deets personally? Maybe you can answer some of our questions.

  36. SanderO;

    “So what? He is consulting in an industry where he has expertise. What does that have to do with some nasties who may have used technology Deets may have been involved in the development of for other purposes than flying planes in to office towers.”

    If you look back over the history of these kinds of Global Free Market coups, what you typically find are industries and corporations that are helping the CIA overthrow elected democracies, thrown into the mix are a few generals and well placed politicians…

    they all do it because they stand to make a lot of money AFTER the coup.

    The problem here is that a few rogue insiders couldn’t pull off what happened on 9/11

    they needed a demolition contractor to successfully pull off the largest controled demolition in history (by a factor of about 4) …

    … AND they needed something that looked like Flight 77 to hit in that EXACT spot of the Pentagon to kill all those accountants looking for the missing 2.3 trillion dollars…

    now… if you ask me, that adds up to corporate collusion from certain companies…

    one of which Mr. Deets may still have financial ties to.

    THAT is why it is important.

  37. SanderO:

    “How about this… is it possible to use a flight simulator and actually be flying a real flight (remote) without knowing it?”

    It’s possible, but doubtful. That’s why we need Mr. Deets to start talking OPENLY about how these systems work.

    You see, a remote piloted 757 would probably be flown by someone in a tag-along plane following close to the 757.

  38. I am well aware of the close connection or synergy as they used to call it in the military industrial complex – the revolving door and the conflict of interest…. where would the defense industry be without enemies and war for us to fight and then have them develop weapons system they can sell us at rip off no bid prices?

    We know this corruption is so deep in our system that the military without the defense industry is nothing and the reverse is the same.

    Deets worked for NASA which supposedly had a civilian science purpose. But it also worked for and with the military in weaponizing space.

    I am personally leery of anyone who is a career military or defense industry person.

    I only know DD from working with AE911T. In that context he seemed OK to me. I don’t know him personally as he lives in CA and I am in NYC. If he comes over this side, I suspect we would get together and I would welcome the opportunity.

    There are enough odd balls(John Bursil comes to mind) in the truth movement with big mouths and bizarre theories that they don’t need to infiltrate with adults like Deets. I have nothing more to say in the matter. He seems honorable to me. Maybe I am naive.

  39. you guys should both read this…

    it’s my response to Darcy Wearing’s laughable attempt to “correct” some of the problems with his recent article (that I believe was and IS designed to make AE911Truth look bad)

    he actually tried to continue with the disinfo that he pushed in the original article and then goes on to make this statement…

    “The details of how the demolitions were accomplished are largely irrelevant at this point in time.” Darcy Wearing

    Someone from AE911Truth trying to claim that the “details” of the demolition process are “largely irrelevant”?

    It’s pretty obvious what Roberts and Dearing are up to…

    the question now is, “is Deets part of it or not”

  40. SanderO;

    “There are enough odd balls(John Bursil comes to mind) in the truth movement with big mouths and bizarre theories that they don’t need to infiltrate with adults like Deets.”

    Fair enough. Bursil is hooked up with that Lear guy isn’t he? The one who has a picture of himself wearing a tinfoil hat and who was into all that remote viewing stuff?

    But, you may or may not know this, but in that same organization, Pilots for 911 Truth, with Bursil and Lear, one of the first members, who is now a CORE MEMBER in good standing (and even helping Bursil with a recent article I think)…..

    …. is a guy by the name of Dwain Deets.

  41. I have to step out for a minute guys. Nice chatting with you both and good information.

  42. By the exchange of SanderO and Willy — you certainly can’t have a proper debate without including option C – which is, we watched bad special effects of VIDEO of a plane melting into a building.

    If anyone can watch the famous south tower impact — and not realize now that we simply watched video manipulation — compliments of our military controlled MSM — then they’ll continue to get lost in this rabbit hole of “let’s spend hundreds of hours learning about drones and Deets”.

    Who cares.
    This is a distraction and false debate whether you both realize it or not. No planes were flown into the twin towers…ON TV (note: I like many was not in downtown Manhattan that day – so I don’t know why they won’t show what really impacted the buildings – it makes no sense to “fake it” – thus, I of course lean towards the simple explanation that thus: no planes hit the towers. However, as you read on, please do not lose sight of the thesis I’m embracing: no REAL planes hit the towers on TV).

    We certainly witnessed a very powerful psy op compliments of our national security/secret govt/ whatever you want to call “the real power of this country”. Through the continued war, and wall street economic thievery – we know the kind of powers we are up against…everything has dovetailed since 9/11 to reveal we have some VERY corrupt power pyramid in place here — they’re getting pretty damn brazen too with their little “events”…. Pretty sinister social planning I think we can all agree….

    September Clues does a clear job of showing we got manipulated video – while everyone in their heads thinks they saw a plane go into a building – they forget they only saw it through the television.

    On the street – Harley Man’s clear calm description of the events is already widely suspect as he describes the “collapse due to structural failure” — but MORE TELLING is his “saw a jet ream into the side of a building, exploding out the other end”.

    Let’s face it – not one plane part was EVER identified. The videos showing planes are manipulated. Oh, most definitely a huge explosion erupted from the tops of those buildings – the wily coyote cut out was on purpose – the wing lines extending to the far left and right are a complete embarrassment to our intelligence. But then again, how much money did Hot Tub Time Machine make at the box office again?

    So without plane parts identified – to jump to “pilotless drones” … again, completely against Occam’s Razor.

    View the impact videos — watching films like original Loose Change or In Plane Site are so clearly disinfo now (whether they knew it or not) due to the excessive time spent showing the “flash”, “is it a pod”…let alone the NORAD standown merry go round.

    It truly is brilliant – the national security apparatus got to flex their technology muscles showing the WORLD something that did not actually happen – while at the same time ensuring that the final shoe dropping for the “911 truth enthusiast” was that “holy smokes, the video is fake, they didn’t even use planes on the towers” — ENSURING COMPLETELY the tin foil hat label and making it simple for those curious but ignorant of the event to keep their “cognitive dissonance” and ignore the issue once hit with that explanation…

    So it’s a lose lose situation for any honest truth movement…

    You can’t get the morons out there to wrap their heads around building 7 classic CD, twin towers exploding top down (another contention: Stop calling it a collapse, NOTHING collapsed… only building 7 could fit that description) — so lord help us trying to explain to friends, family, and strangers, that the powers that be used then and will continue to use the power of technology via the TV tube and “guide us along” with more great myth’s from our 21st century “Plato’s Cave”…Their complete lock and control on the mainstream media grid and access to unlimited video technology effects ensures this…

    ps – I have NO IDEA where the missing persons are – then again, I guess that’s a problem even the drone limited hangout is stuck with… but that is certainly not a rebuttal to the fact that 1 – planes can’t melt into buildings as seen on the videos.

    (note: go back and watch the original Loose Change – there are some HORRIBLE south tower impact video shots – SO clearly phony – hence why we seem to only get the “Herzakoni (sp?) shot” — which by the way was brilliantly copied by a video compositor and showed just how easy it is to fake it… I think the guy did that in 2009… so 8 years after “they” did it in september 2001…

    Look at a film like Jurassic Park – 1993 – me like many was astonished at the dinosaur effects — they look pretty flat and “cg like” now though some 15 years later…

    I have no problem also adding that in the late sixties and early seventies — my parents and the “baby boomer” generation watched NASA go to the moon on TV (wink). Now our generation is treated to it’s own “video magic” …

    So in my opinion, debates about Deets or drones are a complete waste of time… a distraction really.

    The only thing to grasp is that we are being lied to on a monumental scale – and the sooner more know about it – and the sooner we become more suspect of other mainstream news “video events” — the more empowered we will become and thus better to navigate our brave new world…

    The ultimate culprit to point at is the mainstream media. Under control of the military guidance and owned by a tight knit group of huge corporations — they fearmonger and lie to us about EVERYTHING. Our health, the war, the economy, crime, history, their descriptions of our society, and most especially these specially constructed “paradigm shifting” events that serve only to implement the power structures pre-conceived goals… like 9/11 and the rest.

  43. I suspect Option C is a bit over the top, but not entirely so since we know about psy ops and the work of Edward Bernays. I was in NY that day, but did not see the event live as I heard about the first hit on the radio and then went to work, called my wife and drove to the Bronx to get her and get out of town. My view is TV and internet vids.

    But I have read witnesses who did see a plane, though it did strike me as odd with all the traffic helicopters there were no live in coming of the second plane when all eyes were looking skyward and expecting “anything”. Also the first plane supposedly came down the West side over the West Side Highway which has to have several thousand eyewitnesses sitting there looking south in bumper to bumper traffic. There should have been a slew of eyewitness to the first strike sitting in traffic whose attention was first grabbed by a jet roaring low overhead… or so I would think.

    However, there seems to have been many eyewitness to something flying into the buildings even if the TV footage was messed with for maximum effect.

    But once the tops were broken free of the bottom, by whatever mechanism was used – incendiaries, explosives, that huge mass simply crushed through the floor structures down to the ground and the facade peeled away and the core columns too slender toppled when their splices – welds and bolts failed in shear.

    We’re not quite in the Truman show yet.

  44. that huge mass simply crushed through the floor structures down to the ground and the facade peeled away and the core columns too slender toppled when their splices – welds and bolts failed in shear.

    Nope. The concrete was dust, not large chunks.

  45. The weight of 400 thousand tons of avalanche, ground and pulverized everything into dust. The force of this grinding mass grew to as much as 100,000 PSA. By the time the material on the floors, the walls, furniture, contents reached the ground after 14 seconds of tumbling, grinding etc. it was all ground to dust.

    What happened to the tops was pretty similar to a classic CD where the bottom of a structure is removed and the floors collapse down and they are pulverized to dust including concrete. But that was the beginning of what became the avalanche and it completed the process of turning almost everything to dust. The towers had lightweight concrete and probably had fly ash and no stone aggregate in the concrete.. Wall board is gypsum dust with “glue” and it doesn’t take much force to return it to dust. When you are dealing with 100,000 psi every is crushed to dust in no time and there was ample agitation as well.

  46. “The weight of 400 thousand tons of avalanche, ground and pulverized everything into dust”

    Is that what you think? That the top fell down and “pulverized” the lower 90 floors (North Tower)?

    That is ridiculous and, by the way, that is also a variation of the NIST report.

    Also, that is NOT what happens in a standard demolition… the upper HALF or so is dropped on the lower floors BUT the lower section is blown out of the way and the upper section falls and breaks up itself and SOME of the lower structure (with the assistance of PETN and RDX)

    But the floor systems are usually NOT pulverized. They don’t WANT them pulverized because it makes too much of a mess that THEY are responsible for cleaning up.

    But NO… that is NOT what happened. We can all clearly see the floors being pulverized on the way down. They are not stacked at the bottom of the pile… they are not still connected to the floorpans and trusses and even the ceiling tiles are completely GONE…

    these floor systems were PULVERIZED by high explosives and the prooof of that is in that dust that Steven Jones REFUSES to test for traces of HIGH EXPLOSIVE RESIDUE>

  47. All:

    It’s not unsurprizing that SanderO would tacitly support the “no planer” who showed up here.

    You see, SanderO is still basically trying to support the newest variation of the Jones “thermite” distraction. They know they can’t pretend anymore that Jones’ “thermite paint” could blow up the Twin Towers because it isn’t a high explosive…

    so what he is doing is what many of the movement are trying to do… forming the facts around the solution.

    But just like with Jim Hoffman, it’s just a means to get the Truth movement to accept a tad-bit more of the official story… in Hoffman’s case… it’s that Flight 77 DID hit the Pentagon… and in this case it is that gravity caused the collapse of the buildings and the pulverization of the concrete and the destruction of the floor sections.

    Now it isn’t surprizing that SanderO would be tacitly supporting the “no planes” bullshit because remember everyone… JONES GOT HIS START WITH MORGAN REYNOLDS AND JUDY WOOD.

    Morgan Reynolds was the ex-Bush administration official who “turned Truther” and promoted the “no planes hit the towers” disinfo…

    Judy Wood was famous for the other obvious disinfo of the “ray beams from space” theory and the “earthquake weapon” bullshit (that Jones later used to discredit AE911Truth during their recent press conference)

    So no… “option c” IS ENTIRELY “over the top here, SanderO…

    You see, I lived in New York myself… about 10 blocks from where your IP address registers to.

    I still have friends there who saw the second plane, live and with their own two eyes, angle down and curve right into the South Tower.

    They watched it live, and in real time.

    Besides, we all know that the “no planes” line of crap is straight from the Nico Haupt line of disinfo.

    The fact that you don’t take a stronger stand against disinfo like that while claiming you worked with Deets at AE911T makes me wonder about you.

  48. I am sorry to comment that I completely disagree with your understanding of the collapses of the twin towers. The towers weighed 500,000 tons and which is about 5000 tons per floor.

    Once the top sections of each tower were released from the axial support, the mass of those tops began to descend down onto the lower section which was largely intact.

    In the case of WTC the top section deposited about 75,000 tons of material onto the top floor. This began with one 5000 ton floor at a time. The floors crashing obviously broke into large chunks. The reserve strength of the floors was able to carry perhaps as much as 4 times its design load before it too collapsed. Meanwhile more and more material was crashing down INSIDE the facade.

    Look at the videos. The top seems to be disappearing into the bottom. It is! This did not involve crushing of any of the lower sections columns (core or facade). This was a collapse/crushing/destruction of the floors which simply could not support the excessive loading of the mass of multiple floors.

    I don’t care whether this supports or diverges from the NIST account. That is what happened. The mass of the top became a massive avalanche of hundreds of thousands of tons more or less contained inside the facade and outside the core.

    But the unstoppable avalanche, chaotic as it was pushed laterally at the core side and outward at the facade. The facade broke away in huge sections some of them weighing hundreds of tons. Those sections crashed to the ground and then broke apart at their bolted connections.

    The core had little floor areas, being mostly shafts which allowed material to drop straight down to the bottom of the shaft until it punched through with enormous force. There was a similar but smaller avalanche inside the core, which left most of the core columns standing and some of them as high as 70+ stories seen as “the spire”. The spire was too tall and thin to stand, and lacking lateral support the joint connections sheared and this tall columns broke into 36′ long sections.

    There may have been explosives and incendiaries involved in getting the tops off their axial supports and freeing up the PE to destroy the floors in the avalanche. There probably was since the plane energy was absorbed and insufficient columns were destroyed to cause the upper parts to drop immediately.

    NIST tries to paint a picture of heat from the ensuing fires, but there simply was not enough energy to melt enough columns AND to push them off axis for them to allow the floors above to crash down.

    There was no way for the collapse to go, BUT straight down. There was little or horizontal force compared to the gravitation force acting straight down.

    The facade was not exploded off. How would a single explosion send panels made up of 20 or 30 or more of 10′ x 36′ steel sections spanning up to 12 or more floors which were connect at each floor as a single unit? Didn’t happen.

    The falling floor mass left the facade standing and they unzipped their connections as the avalanche proceeded and the facades then peeled off, and broke apart. LOOK at the videos carefully and you will see exactly this.

    You will also see the huge over pressure of air ahead of the crush front of the avalanche blasting out the floor contents through the windows. Not explosions, but compressed air driving the contents of the building right through the facade (weakening it as well). But the glass being weakest gave way first.

    You don’t expect to find large chunks of concrete when 500,000 tons or material is crushing it at 100,000 psi? Have you ever seen concrete tested in a press? concrete is tested for failure at 3000 psi. Concrete will turn to dust and 10 or 20,000 psi… and so will most everything inside that building except steel.

    We need to be keen observers and understand the structure, materials science and the vulnerabilities of THOSE structures. Their design sadly was their demise. The columns were strong enough, the wind shear was adequate, but the floor systems once overloaded as they were, came right down with nothing to stop them. They wanted column free floor space and they created the path of little resistance for the avalanche.

    Study the structure and learn why this design failed with the help of some explosives (few) and incendiaries.

    The planes may have delivered the incendiaries, BTW and exploding a handful of columns would begin a progressive structural failure which would release the tops and all that stored PE. Then it was unstoppable. And it happened 3 times for the similar reasons.

  49. SanderO;

    “I don’t care whether this supports or diverges from the NIST account. That is what happened. The mass of the top became a massive avalanche of hundreds of thousands of tons more or less contained inside the facade and outside the core.”

    Wrong. That is NOT what happened.

    You wish to look at this and tell me the material is “more or less” contained within the facade and in the core?

    You see EXPLOSIONS driving the material UP AND OUT of the area within the perimeter of the tower.

    same here…

    and in the end, what you see is the BULK of the material blow all over the area of the WTC campus as well as lower Manhattan

    this is what happened to all those 100s of tons of floor systems that YOU SAY crushed the lower 90 floors of the twin towers…

    since that material CAN’T be in TWO places at the same time, and since we can clearly SEE it spreading all over the city of New York…

    your NIST supporting theory is WRONG.

  50. SanderO;

    wrong again…

    “The facade was not exploded off. How would a single explosion send panels made up of 20 or 30 or more of 10′ x 36′ steel sections spanning up to 12 or more floors which were connect at each floor as a single unit? Didn’t happen”

    Each section of the exterior columns were made up of 3 columns, 3 stories tall, with two spandrels each, which covered 3 floors of the building.

    The columns themselves were 1/4″ structural steel (towards the lower sections, and HDLA steel in differing variations the higher they got) 14″ x 14″

    The reason the large fragments of the exterior wall columns were propelled so far was NOT because of “one explosion”… it’s called overpressure and it is basically the same thing that causes all the window breakage during a standard controlled demolition.

    You see, inside the floor area, the det cord goes off, blowing up the floor section, pulverizing the concrete, melting the trusses and the floor pans, pulverizing the ceiling tiles and furniture…

    and that causes the overpressure which we see as all the billows of smoke blowing out of the windows as the demolition moves downward.

    But what happens is, occasionally the timing is a bit off and a CUTTER CHARGE located on the exterior columns goes off BEFORE the det cord demoed the floor section and that OVER PRESSURE blows that section of the exterior columns outside the area of the designated “collapse”

  51. SanderO;

    Look at this…

    do you see how the WHITE SMOKE preceeds the darker smoke?

    Thatis because the White is the dust from the floor concrete being pulverized EVENLY

    do you see that?

    the white smoke is coming out of the windows in an EVEN dispersal

    now, according to your theory, as the upper section tipped over, clearly the FIRST part that would be crushed would be on the left side of the picture…

    so therefore you would see more dust in a larger and more developed plume on the left than on the right.

    But that is not what we see.

    What we see is the EVEN pulverization of the floor systems.

    Why is that? Because that is what the det cord is designed to do. It cant’s do it any other way.

    Now according to YOUR theory SanderO, that upper section SHOULD have eventually SLID OFF the left side, following the path of least resistance…

    but it didn’t did it?

    Instead, just like the North Tower, the pulverization was complete and SYMETRICAL.

    ergo… no, the upper sections could not have destroyed the lower floors.

  52. sanderO;

    “Their design sadly was their demise”

    you say you worked with Deets and liked him? Respected his work with AE911T? And yet you come here, to a Truth site and make that claim? That the design was the demise of the Twin Towers?


    Why does SanderO remind me of this quote?

    “[W]e suggest a distinctive tactic for breaking up the hard core of extremists who supply conspiracy theories: cognitive infiltration of extremist groups, whereby government agents or their allies (acting either virtually or in real space, and either openly or anonymously) will undermine the crippled epistemology of believers by planting doubts about the theories and stylized facts that circulate within such groups, thereby introducing beneficial cognitive diversity. (Page 219.) Administrator of the White House Office of Information and Regulatory Affairs, Cass Sunstein

  53. SanderO, former coworker with Dwain Deets, writes this…

    “The planes may have delivered the incendiaries, BTW and exploding a handful of columns would begin a progressive structural failure which would release the tops and all that stored PE. Then it was unstoppable. And it happened 3 times for the similar reasons.”

    You see, it is all about incendiaries and progressive “collapse”

    This is the ENTIRE POINT of the cognitive infiltration of the Truth movement…

    KEEP PEOPLE FROM LOOKING FOR THE PROOF OF CONTROLLED DEMOLITION… ie… testing for residual traces of high explosive residues

  54. Willy,

    I don’t know what your professional background is. I am an architect, and my first job out of college was with Emery Roth & Sons who had just completed the twin towers at the time.

    I have worked as an architect in NYC since 1972 licensed in 1982. I have been to the WTC countless times in my life.

    I worked with AE911Truth and was on their board for a brief period, but am not longer active because I do not support all their assertions – though I DO support their calling for a new investigation.

    I have done careful thorough study of the twin towers, many calculations and to scale drawings. I don’t consider myself an expert, but I am certainly more qualified to comment about their structure and destruction than most in the truth movement including most of AE911Truth who, sadly to say have not bothered to drill deep into the structure.

    I have read so much hooey from “truthers” and others about the construction of the towers from the fact that they had concrete encased cores, to the fact that they had heavy diagonal bracing throughout the height of the core in both axes.

    I know nothing about explosives.

    There was enormous heat involved in dislodging the tops of those towers. More than available in the towers and delivered in the form or jet fuel.

    There were many “things” which would explode in the towers from the excess heat created – water in pipes, storage tanks, HVAC and refrigerant systems. UPS batteries and so forth.

    I cannot identify the white mist as smoke, or steam or both or pulverized gypsum wallboard, or which there was thousands of tons.

    The south tower began to tilt to the SE as a result of the destruction of too many of the supporting columns on that side. The mass above began to descend. The floors slabs acted like rigid square donut shapes and held the facade and the undamaged core together for a bit. It appeared to act as a huge rigid block.

    However inside it was still connected at its bottom on the NW side at first. But the columns left to support it were severely overloaded and they buckled. The top was not hinged at a fixed point. There was a moment developed when the SE side dropped and the entire upper section appears to rotate as much as 20 deg. But it was descending much faster then it was rotating.

    Effectively the SE side of that upper section moved NW and down into the building as the NW upper corner moved down and the SE. The SE lower side led the crushing of the floors of the two sections. In order the NW corner to make it over the side of the tower it had to traverse a horizontal distance of some 280 feet. The upper section broke apart as the lower SE corner crashed into the upper SE corner of the bottom. These collisions arrested the rotation and stopped the horizontal motion for the most part. The downward gravitational force and the mass of top of the bottom intact (for a bit) structure then caused the top break apart into tens of thousands of pieces and drop straight down. It was not a body in free fall. Some of the upper sections of SE side DID go over and fall outside the perimeter. Most of the mass dropped straight down onto the floors systems which were overwhelmed and collapsed.

    The material of the avalanche was disbursed in several ways. The fine pulverized material became airborne and was pushed outward and upward by the displaced air of the collapse. make a pile of dust and drop a sheet of plywood over top. See the dust fly out and up.

    The heavier avalanche debris pushed down, but it became pulverized in a few seconds too. The avalanche was led by large mass and chunks and elements which didn’t pulverize like steel beams.

    When this 80 mph mass of hundreds of thousands of tons hit the bottom it’s energy rebounded up and out and spread a rapidly advancing cloud of hot gases. Enormous heat was created by that collapse and all that crushing.

    Since there was no significant horizontal or asymmetrical forces, the downward force of gravity makes collapses end up in a mound shape which is quite symmetrical. No reason for it to be otherwise. And that’s what we saw with each twin. Nothing noteworthy about the “symmetry” of the collapses.

    The debris pattern of the facade panels is consistent with their peeling off and falling away as many of them are even laid out in sequence as can be seen in the ones leading up to and on the front of the Winter Garden. No facade panels of the South Tower struck the north tower which stood less than 120 feet away.

    There were no pancakes, but there was some large chunks of concrete in the rubble. This was told to me by Chris Giles a first responder who had the tower collapse on him and he survived! But most of the material was crushed to fine powder, most of it disbursed by air. Where does the water go when you point the hose nozzle straight down at the pavement? That’s were the material went. Shoot out dust from the hose at 80 mph and see what happens.

    The cause of collapse is where the conspiracy took place. Getting the key columns off axis so that the mass could move over and drop and crush the floors below. Once you understand the structure you will see that this is that happened. NIST is hooey, but much of the truth movement claims are equally nonsensical.

  55. Once I understand the Structure? Is that what you said?

    Pre-manufactured floor panels of HSLA Steel…” the composition of the trusses themselves (no A-36 structural steel, but rather a combination of ASTM A-242 and an ASTM A-572 equivalent)”

    My scale autocad 2004 cross section of a floor system and exterior column connections..

    MY drawing of the truss layout typical for each floor of the Trade Centers…

    MY 3d model of the trusses and interior (core) column structure and the exterior column structure complete with accurate layout of the staggered column sections…

    don’t presume to tell me what you think I know or don’t know about how those buildings were constructed.

    you will be proven wrong in the end.

  56. “Nothing noteworthy about the “symmetry” of the collapses”


    We know from the PHOTO that I posted earilier, that the top of the SOUTH TOWER was leaning as it began to fall…

    according to YOUR THEORY… it should have fallen and struck the lower floors and then continued it’s angled descent until it SLID OFF and toppled to the ground leaving a good part of the lower floors standing.

    that is a law of physics and CANNOT be ignored.

    the fact that it did not happen like that just goes to prove that the SYMETRICAL demolition of the lower section must have been accomplished by something OTHER than the falling top section of the South Tower…

    so therefore … IT IS VERY NOTEWORTHY

  57. “The material of the avalanche was disbursed in several ways. The fine pulverized material became airborne and was pushed outward and upward by the displaced air of the collapse. make a pile of dust and drop a sheet of plywood over top. See the dust fly out and up”

    wrong again…

    You have steel columns being pushed out and up… and that isn’t by the “air” being displaced… columns dont have enough SURFACE AREA to be pushed THAT MUCH by the “displaced air”

    They were PROPELLED by explosive charges, probably the KICKER CHARGES that were used to move material out of the way so that it would not interfere with the demolition process.

    That’s why you have this…

    and massive amounts of materials being ejected laterally and upward that INCLUDE multi-ton column sections AS WELL AS TONS OF DUST that YOU SAY “pulverized” the floor systems…

    this is the evidence. We can ALL see with our own eyes where the BULK of that material is… outside the collapsing structure…

    well, if it is OUTSIDE the structure, as you can PLAINLY SEE… then that means it wasn’t pulverizing the floors underneath, was it?

    so what did it? what moved those columns out of the way?

    high explosives… just like ANY OTHER CONTROLLED DEMOLITION.

  58. I’m begining to see why the majority of AE911T and you didn’t get along…

    and I am also begining to understand why you and Dwain Deets DID get along.

  59. and you can feel free to post any technical drawings of the Twin Tower design that YOU have done…

  60. Willy,

    I don’t know your background. I will study you drawings later, but briefly your core drawing is wrong.

    I refer you to this for information about the core columns where you can find the actual sections of each column by floor.

    Your framing system is a bit off to as you do not show the cross trusses connection to the facade. Every other column had a beam seat for a floor truss around the entire facade. There were transfer girders (or trusses) from cols 501, 508, 1001 and 1008 to the facade.

    I am not going to get into a pissin match with you online. And I don’t know what your knowledge of professional background is. Your drawings so a much better understanding than most, But you miss the all important beam stubs which carry the girder which supports the inboard side of the floor trusses.

    I don’t know how you can be certain that I will be proven wrong since I am only describing my observations ONCE the tops were “freed”.

    Since I believe there was “intervention” in freeing them, there may have been other “insurance” measures placed lower down in the structure (especially in the mechanical floors where access to the cores was very easy). However, calculations and observations show that once the tops were free and they began to descend, their mass would destroy the floor systems below with no additional explosives required. Do you deny this?

    How much load do you think each floor could carry before failure?

    What would fail first? The beam seats? The angles shearing off? the welds giving way? The two 5/8″ bolts shearing? Perhaps the beam stub welds? Maybe the bars in the trusses snapping? Or the chords parting?

    The floors were designed to carry 100 PSF

    The tops were not exploded to nothing. The material descended ONTO the lower floors and they HAD to collapse from over loads. Can you deny this?

  61. SanderO;

    Your problem Sander, what you are missing first and foremost, is that you are basically supporting the Official NIST theory of collapse.

    You ignore the fact, that anyone can see, that much of the weight that you factor as part of the mechanism the of destruction of the lower section of the buildings was in fact OUTSIDE the buidling structure as the demolition was taking place.

    That’s your first problem.

    Your second problem however is far more fatal to the entire “crush down” theory you are here to present.

    And that is, simply put, in the “crush down” theory, you MUST have an even, flat, “piston like” upper section load acting evenly (falling and striking) on the remaining unweakened sections.

    You see, with a flat, smooth, piston-like surface striking down upon the lower floors, you may or may not achieve the results that we saw…

    … but that is NOT what the upper section was.

    The falling upper section, in the case of the North Tower, 10 floors, would have been a disconneted and flimsey (in some places) broken section of the upper floor system.

    The FIRST thing that would have hit the lower sections would have been the trusses of the upper section, then the cracked up lower floor of the upper section.


    it would have shatted just like the floor it struck

    the core columns would then have slid inside the core column section of the undamaged section below like the two sets of fingers on your hands when you bring them together

    what that would have done would have been to damaged BOTH the upper and the LOWER sections evenly….


    what you probably would have had, were it not for high explosives carefully timed to demo the buildings, would have been a few floors destroyed by the collapsing upper section, and then the core structure intertwined with the top of the lower structure…

    … with the hat truss resting firmly in place on top of the entire mess.

    THAT WOULD HAVE BEEN A NIGHTMARE TO DEMOLISH once it was all over and the Towers had to go.

    Now, as far as the column details that I provided. The 3d model I put together is designed to show HOW the columns and the floor systems worked together so that other Truth advocates could better understand the make-up of the Twin Towers.

    It was partly done because I, like you, grew tired of people repeating false claims of how the Towers were constructed.

    You ask… “However, calculations and observations show that once the tops were free and they began to descend, their mass would destroy the floor systems below with no additional explosives required. Do you deny this?”

    absolutely. with NO HESITATION… do I deny that. and I have listed multiple reasons, given drawings, and shown photos that support my claim.

    Your ENTIRE premise is based on the supposition that the ENTIRE weight of the upper section struck each and every floor EVENLY as the “collapse” occured, and as you can see, that is NOT what happened.

  62. SanderO=Deet’s? I mean, Deets suddenly got very silent and then this guy showed up so I’m just askin….

  63. Willy,

    Perhaps I am not making myself clear about the sequence.

    First, I don’t believe you need a piston or a pile driver. What I believe happened on a simple basis is that once the top was released ie offset from the columns and having no support it could to nothing but drop.

    The facades appear to mostly have slipped passed, but is the translation (offset) was (for example) 20″ to the east the upper east facade dropped outside the lower east facade, while the west side the upper west side slipped inside the lower west facade. On the west side upper facade came down on the floor connections line a shear and severed the upper most intact floors west side connections. A similar destruction happened at the same time to the lowerst floor of the upper sections east side floor connections.

    Meanwhile the core columns were passing each other like two hair brushes’ bristles when they are pushed together. But the core columns encountered cross beams and the girders which held up the inboard end of the floor systems. The columns were concentrated load points LIKE pile drivers punching through and destroying anything in the paths. It was a mutual destruction – the bottom’s columns destroying the descending top and the top’s columns destroying the bottom.

    Destroying? No not actually destruction. Breaking the structure apart into massive sections as the collided into each other. No piston.

    This mutual destruction proceeded as the top descended INTO the bottom leaving a huge pile of rubble on the highest floor intact and still connected to the columns in sufficient places to act as a membrane. But this floor could not hold the increasing accumulation of floors and contents descending down on it.

    It broke, and probably not in a single mass drop like a record on a changer, but sections gave way as they were overloaded. The time interval of all this was fractions of a second.

    But the load distribution was (overload) was fairly uniform and it is possible that an entire floor could drop at once. It doesn’t really matter. The floors were not strong enough as 4″ thick lightweight slabs to remain as 29,000 SF plates descending like pancakes in a stack. There was chaos much like any avalanche made up of all sorts of size chunks interacting. Seen on a macro level it acted like a uniform mass much the way a pile of gravel would, or rocks.

    The failure was and the beginning of the avalanche began when a threshold value was reached – the yield strength of the system or any of its key components. Then there was a catastrophic failure. Exert a point load on a window. Nothing happens until you reach the elastic limit and then the pane shatters in a instant. This is how the stresses and the failures progressed. First over loading the system which would hold until the yeild strength limit was passed and then catastrophic failure.

    Witness described a pop pop pop and this could be the sound the avalanche front hitting and breaking them. Who knows. There certainly had to be some slight acoustic event as the floors were separated by 11′-8″.

    But MOST of the avalanche decent was through AIR since the 11′-8″ was air and 4″ was concrete and there was some furniture and so forth in between

    The air had to be pushed away since it couldn’t be compressed. The path was the windows which it exploded through as well as any vertical shafts in the core.

    The gathering rubble tried to spill out and into the core and pushed the facade away.

    Evenly? I don’t think so. Randomly – chaos YES. When you look at chaos and something like an avalanche you have hundreds of thousands of random chaotic elements acting (mostly down because of gravity) which on the MACRO level appear as a single force. What is a wave of water? It can pack enormous force because all the separate particles of water are moving in the same direction. What you had there was a wave of debris and it was random and downward and on the macro level acted like a uniform load or uniformly over the entire floor, even is the load over every SF was somewhat different.

    People use the word – Piston and sometimes Pile Driver. No such thing in the twins. But 10s of thousands of pounds of material is hard for a 4″ thick floor system to support and that’s what happened about 75 times in the case of the south tower and 95 times in the north.

    The still photo you presented above appears to be something exploding up and out, but most of this is an artifact of the descent of the core inside the dust cloud pushed outward by compressed air noted above.

    This is nothing like what NIST wants us to believe – trusses pulling in the facade and floors collapsing from truss failure (sag).
    They don’t deal with what got the top off the columns which held it up.

    Read for a deeper understanding of the collapses.

  64. chris:

    I don’t think they are the same, but I did all of a sudden get hit by SanderO here and “Gregg” Roberts on another thread…

    (scroll down to the bottom of the comments…)

    seems like an all out effort from the controlled opposition front to me… been keeping me busy all morning and I got to cut my grass….

  65. actually SanderO… the witnesses, hundreds of them, reported seeing “flashes” going all around the buildings AND hearing “explosions” like “pop pop pop” all around, floor by floor.

    here is some interesting stuff for you to look at…

    and here is a link to watch a top down demolition and some first responders testimony…

    Karin Deshore – Captain (E.M.S.)

    “Somewhere around the middle of the World Trade Center, there was this orange and red flash coming out. Initially it was just one flash. Then this flash just kept popping all the way around the building and that building had started to explode. The popping sound, and with each popping sound it was initially an orange and then a red flash came out of the building and then it would just go all around the building on both sides as far as I could see.</blockquote>

    orange and red flashes… now where have I seen those…

  66. wow…this has been interesting……I also can’t see how SandeO can ignore the explosive sounds and ‘lights’ that is visual all around the towers as the top begins to fall… and the reports of firemen telling of loud explosions occuring below them as they tried to rescue people….. and no plane hitting towers? crazy… too many people saw what appeared to be a plane traveling at a great speed plow into the buildings…. and it did not ‘melt’ into the building…. and planes can drive into a building….
    and if SanderO thinks that a plane loaded with very high explosives hit the towers and exploded with enough force to melt construction steel.. then wouldn’t such an explosion have lifted the top and thrown it up in such a manner that the top (in many pieces) would have fell onto to other buildings?
    and where is Deets? Guess he took on more than he could chew.
    this was a planned demo and I agree with Willy…

  67. SanderO;

    for those of you who don’t know, what SanderO is doing here is trying to pass off a segment of the NIST report as viable, when in fact, it is not. It’s laughable.

    It comes from NIST’s Dr. Bazant and it is called the “crush down” theory.

    “Björkman explains why he believes the Piledriver idea is ridiculous.“If you have a structure—anything, building blocks, Lego, or a book case, and you take the top part and drop it on the rest—because it’s the same structure—the smaller top part can never supply sufficient energy to destroy the bigger bottom—as long as it’s the same structure. If you have a solid steel ball on a lot of glass or very weak things, of course the strong one can crush the bottom part, but if the structure is the same –like the World Trade Center towers—the top part is weaker than the rest and can never crush anything below,” he said. “Fires cannot cause structural failures that make steel structures collapse from top down! It is quite basic, actually,” he said. “

  68. SanderO’s head is full of grinding dusty shit if he expects people to actually believe something that can easily be shown to be false and idiotic.

    You have a hack on your hand, Willy.

  69. yeah, I got a couple of em… SanderO here, Deets, Roberts, and now his other “friend”… Chris Sarns is back… on the other thread…

    … it’s ALMOST like they called each other… you think? maybe? possibly?

  70. Hey SanderO…

    why didn’t you ever respond when I pointed out that your friend Deets just happens to work closely with Bursil, a guy you called a quack basically?

    remember this?

    “Fair enough. Bursil is hooked up with that Lear guy isn’t he? The one who has a picture of himself wearing a tinfoil hat and who was into all that remote viewing stuff?

    But, you may or may not know this, but in that same organization, Pilots for 911 Truth, with Bursil and Lear, one of the first members, who is now a CORE MEMBER in good standing (and even helping Bursil with a recent article I think)…..

    …. is a guy by the name of Dwain Deets”

    you just let that go and didn’t even mention it again. Didn’t know Mr. Deets was hooked up with them… or you didn’t think I knew it?

  71. Right now, there’s something very big and very ugly going on in the Gulf that needs looking into. All of a sudden, these people show up here–with all this.

    The timing seems strange to me.

    r ap

  72. It’s really interesting, one can go blind reading all this “days of our lives” drama… everybody, this is the state of the movement, endless realignments of alliances, continued name calling, he was this, she was that, they were a member here, now they’re there —- stay attune READER even if you think you’re in the safety of “real truthers” — a lot of this soap opera smells very much like a distraction even if we think it’s only coming from one side.

    In 2006 when i started doing screenings of Jones’ work – and then stumbling upon Willy’s site and CLEAR evidence of Jones’ hanging the movement out to dry with his “test the dust already” emails — I realized no progress had been made in the “argument” for demolition. It hadn’t moved beyond thermite and discussion of what type of explosives were used, and most important this question had not been answered: was there evidence of explosives residue in the dust?

    So even Willy’s revealing of Jones’ true cards was over a year ago — and I’ve emailed here before, saying hey lets test the dust. That Roberts guy pretty much said the same thing in his email, “test it yourself”, which one has to admit — he’s got a point.. (Yes Wily, I completely agree – they have the time, tools, and dust samples – but they’re not doing now, doesn’t look they they ever will, and moreover – everything points to them being “disinfo” “cointel pro” anyway so we should expect anything different from them)

    So to the point —
    How much is a kit or lab to test PETN Willy?
    How much does some “sample dust holder” want in order to take/borrow a sample of their dust?

    I’ll paypal $100 — let’s see, your other readers, hey maybe even Roberts will donate too right? (maybe it’s the responsibility and effort involved that keeps him from testing samples they already have and a BYU lab they could send it to…so maybe they need YOU to helf them…. that’s sarcasm of course)

    I mean, it is kind of odd ranting on and on about it — even accusing those guys of not testing the dust they have — but there’s been no attempt to corral and unite readers here under a mission to test this dust once and for all and get whatever results there are to be gotten from doing so….

    anybody else who comes here often get that feeling? Like, how hard is it to get this going?

    So, we’ll get the clear costs — raise the money — and we should agree to promise to return the funds if the samples or testing is unattainable for any reason.

    Like I said – I’ll donate…. of course I want assurance the test will happen – that’s why I think finding out 1. how much the test is for PETN in a lab and 2 – the cost and/or time needed to get dust samples to test is the first step. You may have even done that already Willy, but I want to assure you that myself and hopefully the other readers will not force you to sell your possessions and financially struggle to get this going.

    Hey, maybe Jones/AE911truth will give us a little sample if we “donate” to their cause. How much do they want? $500? $1000? Maybe you can email Roberts and ask him? or email another AE contact or Jones, hell, anybody who has access to those samples. How many people read this blog? How many will donate to to make this happen?

    If Willy gives us a cost – we can struggle to reach it. That’s a goal certainly worth shooting for. How much more time and be spent pointing out shills and sandbaggers of the movement? Action not words right?

    Again, alot of the comments on a Deets and Drones is completely pointless — you’ll never prove drones or planes – but you can prove PETN right ?

    Let’s do it — hey Willy be the ringleader — fire up your readers — we’ll all do our part to guilt them to donate for this MOST IMPORTANT scientific test of the 21st century to answer one of the word’s biggest mysteries – the root cause of the destruction of the WTC towers, right?

    Jeez, everything else here is a soap opera — no planes is bulls&*% — fine whatever, you can’t prove planes anyway BUT we can prove PETN (perhaps even lend credence to your det cord delivery theory)

    I think that’s my biggest disappointment – like realizing Jones from 2006 to 2010 will not test for explosives, but then again, neither will anyone else…..

    Money makes the world go round – how much we need to make it happen Willy ? Lead on…

  73. Hey Roy, BP has taken the cap off and the oil it spilling into the Gulf freely again.. they say they had to do that in order to put a new cap on…. in a few days…. does that make any sense?
    and out navy is flying a huge blimp over the
    gulf to take pictures of distressed animals… crazy… why use a blimp? A helicopter would be more efficient….. what is going on?
    Can they arm a blimp with a nuclear bomb?

  74. alright…

    yes…. we could get this done ourselves. This would be the process…

    1. we would have to contact people with clean samples. Samples that have been taken and not changed hands since they were collected. That’s important. the chain of custody has to be as short as possible.

    2. they would have to send a portion of that sample to the designated “hub” (the person collecting the various samples and sending them out to be tested) while keeping part of their sample for later as a control sample (to show the “hub” didn’t change it)

    3. from that point we would have to verify the sample matched the key identifiers that are specified in the RJ Lee Report… like the fingerprints of the Ground Zero debris… that makes sure that we are testing a real sample.

    4. At that point, depending on the availability of funds, you could send a portion of each sample to different testing facilities like Leeder Consulting. You would want to send portions of each sample to different labs so that you could ensure that they each came back with the same results, if they didn’t, if one is different, then you know something is up.

    This is going to open up a number of problems… first is that this is being discussed openly on the internet, so of course all our friends at the NSA are perking up their little ears. Once we actually started this process, as you can probably imagine, the people involved would probably end up getting busted with “child porn” or something like that on their computers… if you catch my drift…

    But that could be attempted.


    we could set up a time and a location, go to New York, meet with the people that have their samples, and run tests live, on internet broadcasts, with preliminary testing kits like this one used in forensic labs all across the country.

    We would first have to figure out a way to test and make sure the samples meet with the RJ Lee “fingerprint”… but if we did that, then at least we could get a possitive test result THEN send samples to various labs at that point and do it all out in the open, under the cover of maximum exposure.

    That way if anything happens to the one indivudual (like the “hub” in the first senario) then the tests go on as planned anyway. If something were to happen to EVERYONE involved, then that would be pretty obvious, now wouldn’t it?

    I tend to think that the second idea is the best idea. Though it does involve more planning and more people having to get together at the same time, and travel… it’s less dependent on ONE person to make it all happen.

    It’s also better because the people who have kept this stuff for so long don’t just send it off to someone they don’t know… they come together, watch the tests conducted themselves, and see the whole thing take place themselves right there.

    At that point, if there is a positive result, which I don’t see any other possible outcome if it is a real sample, they can then decide about further testing and the video feed is already out there reinvigerating the Truth Movement….

    and God knows we could use some good news.

    anyway… those are just a few of the ideas I have had.

    I am open to suggestions.

  75. I happen to personally know one of the people who has dust samples. He and his wife live a few blocks north of the WTC at 1 Hudson Street. I believe he provided samples to Harrit et al. I have no idea if he would consent to provide or sell some of the dust he has remaining.

    I met them at the Valley Forge conference last Spring. They seem like good people. Both artists.

    There must be lots of dust samples collected by private persons and government agencies. RJ Lee must have some as well. Contact them with your proposal and see if it flies.

    I would be interested in what the analysis shows. But you would need a large sampling to draw any conclusions.

  76. Sorry, I’ve missed out on the recent discussion. I’ve been busy putting together a new website.

    The first problem I listed was, “No airplane struck Building 7.” Maybe, I should have said, “No drone struck Building 7.”


  77. I see, my website isn’t automatically listed on the post. The website is:

  78. Although I believe that 7 looks extremely suspicious and likely that 100 feet of the structure was “wiped” out enabling the free fall acceleration for those 2.25 seconds I am curious about what happened to the facade for those 100 feet.

    I haven’t studied the structure of 7 but it did not have a structural facade as the twins and so it could literally fold with little resistance. But there were columns inside the curtain wall and they would have had to “disappear” structurally of course.

    But I am more intrigued by the facade showing no kinking during the fall as it went down at FF. This may be similar to what happened to the stronger twins facade which somehow managed to have the upper facade slip inside the lower one as the top came down enabling it to appear that the top was dropping as a block and the entire upper section was intact – destroyed in collision with and at its bottom or exploded away at its bottom. I’m reminded of the crash of the Hinderberg where you see the crashing structure “disappearing” while behind it remains relatively intact.

    Do we have any video of the bottom during the collapse of 7? If not, isn’t that odd? or are they being kept from the public?

  79. why is it that SanderO and Deets always seem to show up together? When you guys go out on the town, to you go to the bathroom together as well?

    just asking…

    Mr. Deets…

    You can oversimplify and deliberately mistate my position all you want…

    “The first problem I listed was, “No airplane struck Building 7.” Maybe, I should have said, “No drone struck Building 7.””

    I’m glad this is all a joke to you.

    Congratulations on your observation that no plane struck Building 7… that’s quite “cutting edge” of you

    but perhaps before you attempt to mis-state my position on how drones were used on Sept. 11th, maybe you should just read what I have written about Building 7…

    “9/11 Shock Opera… Act 4 – Building 7 and Flight 93: The Grand Finale that Wasn’t”

  80. Your website is linked by your name, Mr. Deets… that is why it’s underlined…

  81. Good! You already connected up Building 7 and Flight 93.

    Interesting, in the timing you suggest.


  82. You will also notice the timing of recent story out from Fox News (yes, yes, I know… “Faux News”) that had a reporter admiting that Luck Larry Silverstein was on his phone trying to arrange an insurance payment with his insurance company in the event that they would have to demo Building 7 via explosive demolition… according to the reporter that seems to have taken place just after Flight 93 went down.

    seems like up until that point, Mr. Silverstein wasn’t all that concerned about what was going to happen to Buidling 7 and his precious insurance money. Oddly enough, the fate of Flight 93 may have changed all of that… or else, that is what the timing suggests.

    that part of the story isn’t my article, since the Fox story had yet to come out.

  83. I see Mr.Deets ducked the Zakheim/SPC stuff. Interesting.

  84. Scott, please provide a way to contact you.

  85. sure shadow. You can email me if you like…

  86. I’m glad somebody actually researched facts with the source material.. The C4 rebar explains how, not the why but the why is to take our rights away in the name of terror by the establishment that Eisenhauer warned about many years ago….? The who is the rabbit hole and it sems its nearly everybody going back to the British empire.

  87. Thanks , I have recently been searching for info approximately this topic for a long time and yours is the best I’ve found out till now. But, what concerning the bottom line? Are you positive concerning the supply?

  88. Wow, I can’t believe its been almost a year since this little discussion. Deets is still highly suspect.

  89. Free falling… isn’t that a bit of an exaggeration?

  90. Interesting that dwain deets profile now seems to have been deleted from their website

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